Chinese Tech Group

[Takeo92]

Ok now i am really shocked.. what did you do paradox?

India is Tech Group Indian .. 150% more costs .. China, Korea, Japan have tech group "chinese" and things cost 160% more? 160%?


I know, i already flamed a lot about tech group´s START worse.. but the fact that they also gain much, much slower new techs is just ridicolous.. really..

120% would have been .. interesting, but 160%? Really? What kind of joke is that?

And why putting Japan, Korea and China in the same tech group? China and Japan have become extremely different during the 10 century after domini..



I am so shocked.. i am so shocked... oh god.. i will mod this.. thats really terrible..


Ottoman tech group is the only one which can somehow get along.. 25% more expensive.. but srsly what did you think when doing the new world tech group.. 150% more expensive? I mean ok, from what i can say about china now.. its ok, its playable, but japan seriously.. its, holy jesus.. the national ideas compared to european national ideas, and then the tech disadvantage.. i mean for china its not that bad, china can make the tech advantage up with their masses, but japan cant.. omg.

Please fix it.. An seperate japanese tech group with ... max 30% more expensive or i see rather dark..


I mean BRUNEI on the same tech level with Japan and China.. are you serious?

 

[Illanair]

Please include an 8 page long analysis of why the percentage is a bad thing (Include examples), and at least two pages with a proposition on how to change it. Then we'll talk shop.

Or in other words - Criticism is incredibly easy when you don't actually bother analyzing the consequences of a change.

 

[Mars6]

Actualy it's not 160% increased, but 60% increased, Or western_tech * 1.6. So instead of 500 points per tech, you need 800. Slower, yes. Game killing, no.

 

[Sun_Wu]

The tech group China is in should either not have a -1 to administrative points or they should be able to get imperial examinations which give 1-2 points admin. The bureaucracy was incredibly effective.

China should not start off with 3/3/3 tech, it should be either 4/4/4 or 5/5/5 as China was ahead of Europe in technology. Starting ahead of Europe combined with the tech penalty shows China slowly falling behind.

 

[Ethanol]

Actually the penalty is less than in EU3...

Here you need 800 MP instead of 500 for a tech level (500*1.6).

Whit the old EU3 system (40% research speed) you would have needed 500/0.4 = 1250 MP instead of 500.

Overall everyone has benefited of that, and since Ideas are now much more important even low tech-level countries can still be a minimum (not to much) competitive if well-played. (Well not new-world natives).

 

[TheChronoMaster]

(Well not new-world natives).

Westernizing kicks you straight to the Western tech group now, so even they can be competitive if they survive long enough to do that.

 

[Heatth]

China should not start off with 3/3/3 tech, it should be either 4/4/4 or 5/5/5 as China was ahead of Europe in technology. Starting ahead of Europe combined with the tech penalty shows China slowly falling behind.

I agree with that. This probably could apply for the Muslin world as well. Although Europe did went far ahead during the time frame, it started from behind. Not to mention it would be more interesting, as an European country, to slowly become more and more stronger than the rest of the world, instead just being pretty much ahead from the start. I think this solution works better for both historicity and gameplay.

 

[Emperor Marcus]

i think your mistaken its not a 160% modifier its actually a 200% modifier. At least thats how it was in the Demo files.

You also get -1 to all monarch points accumulations as a further malus to the Ming.

 

[BoleslavLev]

They need to survive europeans troops and for that they need to finish westernization, which could take like 5 - 15 years (my assumption after my game as Ottomans where I tried this - there is post on the forum where I wrote my thoughts on that). But it will be possible to do that, no doubts there.

 

[Calahir]

China was not as advanced as many people think. They claimed to be the centre of The World which implied to think that culture and heritage of every other people were barbaric. This arrogance made China unable to modernize. Chinese were perfect in many fields but when Jesuits arrived there, they noticed that Chinese had known almost nothing about mathematics, astronomy, optics and shipbuilding (both are destroyed knowledge of Zhang He). These sciences were vital for growing modern powers.

 

[Takeo92]

Ok and what is this?
China is still playable, but japan is NOT. -5 Diplomacy power BY DEFAULT, you cant change it. Tried hours.

It says: 13/8 diplomatic power - 5

So even with the best diplomatic advisor you can only get 0 diplomatic power.. really? and additionally -1 for chinese tech group.. omg its so ridicolous.
I talk about the beta, not the demo.

hope they fix it..

i mean starting with -5 diplomatic power/ month is just ridicolous.. i will make screen later

 

[Heatth]

Ok and what is this?
China is still playable, but japan is NOT. -5 Diplomacy power BY DEFAULT, you cant change it. Tried hours.

It says: 13/8 diplomatic power - 5

So even with the best diplomatic advisor you can only get 0 diplomatic power.. really? and additionally -1 for chinese tech group.. omg its so ridicolous.
I talk about the beta, not the demo.

hope they fix it..

i mean starting with -5 diplomatic power/ month is just ridicolous.. i will make screen later

Probably due to all their vassals. Maybe they should have an special modifier or something, to avoid this. Anyway, you can aways play as one of the Japanese minors.

 

[Zarine]

China is still playable, but japan is NOT. -5 Diplomacy power BY DEFAULT, you cant change it. Tried hours.

Hum... maybe playing with files to force the demo enabling other countries just broke Japan?

 

[dharper]

Although there are clearly differences of opinion in this thread, I hope we can all agree that while China was an advanced country in the middle ages, by the time of the Opium Wars, they had fallen hopelessly behind Europe. In order to reflect this in the game - and still make it possible for a human player to escape this fate - you could make a very simple change to the files.

Tech modifiers are found in the /EU4/common/technology.txt file.

If you look at it, you'll see:

	chinese = {
		modifier = 0.6
		start_level = 2
		cav_to_inf_ratio = 0.5
		power = -1
	}

Just change the "start_level" to 3 to make them equal to Europe in 1444, or to 4 to make them slightly superior. Then change the "modifier" to 0.65 or 0.7 to slow down their research a little, so that they end up at the same place they would normally. Of course, you could always westernize your way out of it.

Note that this would have the effect of doing the same to all east Asian countries, like the Japanese minors, Dai Viet or Korea, but not the Mongol hordes or Hindu countries (which are in separate tech groups).

 

[dharper]

Ok and what is this?
China is still playable, but japan is NOT. -5 Diplomacy power BY DEFAULT, you cant change it. Tried hours.

If you're talking about the nation of Japan, it's a special case. It's trying to represent the fading power of the shogun by the time the game starts. "Japan" starts with all the Japanese countries (13 of them?) as vassals, which ties up its diplomatic power entirely. If you want a higher diplomatic power, you'll need to set some of them loose. But you're not supposed to play as the Ashikaga - you're supposed to play as one of the smaller Japanese states, fighting with rivals until you feel powerful enough to face the shogun directly and gain your independence, then gobble up the remaining minors and declare yourself Japan.

 

[wolfing]

I also agree they should start ahead in technology and with their slower advancement, still get stomped by European powers later, but not roflstomped.

 

[Takeo92]

If you're talking about the nation of Japan, it's a special case. It's trying to represent the fading power of the shogun by the time the game starts. "Japan" starts with all the Japanese countries (13 of them?) as vassals, which ties up its diplomatic power entirely. If you want a higher diplomatic power, you'll need to set some of them loose. But you're not supposed to play as the Ashikaga - you're supposed to play as one of the smaller Japanese states, fighting with rivals until you feel powerful enough to face the shogun directly and gain your independence, then gobble up the remaining minors and declare yourself Japan.

Thats interesting, thanks. However, the ashikaga shogunate fell apart after the onin war, if ashikaga shogunat had won that war, it wont have. The war was 1467, so after the start date 1444....

 

[unmerged(671782)]

China was not as advanced as many people think. They claimed to be the centre of The World which implied to think that culture and heritage of every other people were barbaric. This arrogance made China unable to modernize. Chinese were perfect in many fields but when Jesuits arrived there, they noticed that Chinese had known almost nothing about mathematics, astronomy, optics and shipbuilding (both are destroyed knowledge of Zhang He). These sciences were vital for growing modern powers.

I agree that the loss of Zheng He's ships set them way back in naval tradition, but in 1521 China was still able to defeat Europeans in its own waters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Tamao
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Tamao_(1522)

They definitely weren't technologically advanced, however they were no where near the backwards state that most claim them to be.
That was around mid 1700s.

Also the increased tech cost is 60% compared to European tech, not 160%, but there's a lot of other limitations on them that I don't agree with.

Anyways the tech penalty is fine. Manchu only gets +50% due to neighbor bonus.

Historically, Ming dynasty should have been facing revolts and a strong Manchu invasion but I don't think PI knows how to emulate that.
Ming took the budget that went into their ships and threw it at the Great Wall, which was ultimately ineffective.
There's no equivalent to that in the actual game so idk.
If mods could simulate the actual condition of late Ming then the tech shouldn't even be a problem.
It's not like irl someone told the Chinese they should have a +60% tech penalty because they're Chinese.
There was a reason why Ming dynasty fell in the end.

 

[carron]

i westernized as japan in 1670~, i was "lucky" that france set up a colony in in the kuril islands (and everywhere else).

despite that i never managed to catch up with the techs, it all depends on your points, and they are not dependant on your monetary success, or any other success.

the neighborhood bonus might be too low, it's just 25% while in eu3 it was a fixed amount and you just flew to tech parity with the west while in eu4 you first have to take the westernization troubles where you can basically do nothing at all.

 

[Belissarius]

I agree that the loss of Zheng He's ships set them way back in naval tradition, but in 1521 China was still able to defeat Europeans in its own waters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Tamao
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Tamao_(1522)

They definitely weren't technologically advanced, however they were no where near the backwards state that most claim them to be.
That was around mid 1700s.

Also the increased tech cost is 60% compared to European tech, not 160%, but there's a lot of other limitations on them that I don't agree with.

Anyways the tech penalty is fine. Manchu only gets +50% due to neighbor bonus.

Historically, Ming dynasty should have been facing revolts and a strong Manchu invasion but I don't think PI knows how to emulate that.
Ming took the budget that went into their ships and threw it at the Great Wall, which was ultimately ineffective.
There's no equivalent to that in the actual game so idk.
If mods could simulate the actual condition of late Ming then the tech shouldn't even be a problem.
It's not like irl someone told the Chinese they should have a +60% tech penalty because they're Chinese.
There was a reason why Ming dynasty fell in the end.

China had a problem with innovation. In the west innovation is almost a norm. By innovation I don't just mean tech advancement. I mean using technology that is know already in new ways. Take gunpowder China has this for centuries before the world, so while the Chinese use gunpowder in rockets and grenades the failed to innovate and make cannons a standard weapon yet they had the technology to do so. Europeans seeing the Turks use cannon quickly adopted this technology, seeing how gunpowder make a cannon lethal to a castle they very quickly innovated this idea and made a miniature cannon that was lethal to a soldier.

China believed its culture had reached a level of perfection. This attitude does in fact stagnate innovation. So while no one "told the Chinese you get +60% tech penalty because you are Chinese," its true, but the Chinese told themselves that we are culturally perfect and thus have no need to improve. It is this very real aspect of their culture that stagnated themselves.

You examples of the troubles china had don't actually explain away their lack of innovation what they do in fact explain is why they rarely extended beyond their current borders. These conflicts would normally spur on innovation as you look for solutions to these problems but that doesn't happen in China simply because they felt they had reach a cultural zenith.

Look at China today they no longer think they have nothing new to learn. Their own domestic problems with pollution and environmental impact is causing them to be world innovators in green technologies. So I think there are some very valid reasons why China gets hobbled in EU4.