Chinese tech = African tech

[Incompetent]

Knowledge transfer only goes so far, and often only transfers rudimentary parts of them, do you really need examples from the modern world? Japan didn't become a western power because they traded with westeners, it had to be through a difficult reform and transformation of society. The tech difference was appropiate pre-aow, the only issue being it inappropriate for different regions. Having SS-africa getting the same tech as China.........

Sure, but what does having a neighbouring Western province have to do with anything? Why is 'Western Arms Trade' a general tech bonus, rather than just a military tech bonus?

The 60% tech penalty for Korea, Japan and so on has never made sense, certainly not one that's in place from 1444 onwards.

 

[MinscShip]

it was superior to europan technology to the start of 1700 but dont tell anyone

 

[toroltao]

Sure, but what does having a neighbouring Western province have to do with anything? Why is 'Western Arms Trade' a general tech bonus, rather than just a military tech bonus?

The 60% tech penalty for Korea, Japan and so on has never made sense, certainly not one that's in place from 1444 onwards.

What's even more rage inducing is the fact that once you westernize... you don't get western units.

So what is the point anymore? There is literally no point in westernizing if you're already doing well.

 

[TolHydra]

I see what is happening, deliberate bashing of asia so when they finally release the 'Divine Wind 2.0" We'll give them all our monies. (I know I will )

Otherwise the amount of euro-centricism is just absurd.

 

[unmerged(463193)]

What's even more rage inducing is the fact that once you westernize... you don't get western units.

So what is the point anymore? There is literally no point in westernizing if you're already doing well.

pretty much this... westernization is not as useful anymore.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

What's even more rage inducing is the fact that once you westernize... you don't get western units.

So what is the point anymore? There is literally no point in westernizing if you're already doing well.

Trade companies and reduction in tech cost are useful sometimes.

 

[deezee]

I'm sure the ancient Ming are turning in their graves.

Not that it matters or is relevent, but it amuses me how you refer to the Ming as "ancient". I mean, I doubt anyone would refer to the "ancient Scottish" or "ancient Castillans", but they were contemporaries.

 

[toroltao]

Not that it matters or is relevent, but it amuses me how you refer to the Ming as "ancient". I mean, I doubt anyone would refer to the "ancient Scottish" or "ancient Castillans", but they were contemporaries.

Late Medieval Ming just doesn't have the same ring to it.

 

[Captain Frye]

Basically, everything related to Ming in the game is designed to stop them from stomping the rest of the world.

Well maybe analyze the situation why it didn't happen in real life and make a historical handicap rather than some made up one?

 

[Big Blue Blob]

If Paradox want to stop Ming blobbing, just add more internal politics and tell the AI not to annex things. China was not aggressive, so AI Ming should not be aggressive either. There. Done. This technology gimping is absurd, especially when nomads have better technology and Siberians are equal (what!?). China should start at tech 5 or so with maybe a 40% penalty or even less, then fall behind over time if it becomes complacent and does not westernise.

Paradox's handling of China is not racist, it is just lazy and ignorant. They are not white supremacists, just historically illiterate bums. I am no fan of theirs, but I would never accuse them of being fascist as some have.

 

[toroltao]

Paradox's handling of China is not racist, it is just lazy and ignorant. They are not white supremacists, just historically illiterate bums. I am no fan of theirs, but I would never accuse them of being fascist as some have.

I don't think anyone is accusing PI of being racist. It's just that how the game works right now would not be far off from a fantasy on par with something a Stormfront member would cook up.

I agree though that it's just PI being lazy. Not necessarily historically illiterate bums. I don't think they're that bad. All the nerfs are, again, to cripple Ming so as they do not blob. The better way to handle this would be to make sure the Manchus have a high chance of rising and taking over Ming when they historically did.

 

[Magean]

Art of War gave much love to the ROTW... with the exception of the Far East. With all these new countries, a splitting of the Chinese tech group is direly needed. There is no point is saying that political abstractions have been uprooted, while that technological nonsense is still there.

If anything, the Siberian natives should share the group of North American natives. There should be a distinct tech group for S-E Asia, and the malus of the Chinese tech group should be lowered.

 

[Big Blue Blob]

I don't think anyone is accusing PI of being racist. It's just that how the game works right now would not be far off from a fantasy on par with something a Stormfront member would cook up.

I agree though that it's just PI being lazy. Not necessarily historically illiterate bums. I don't think they're that bad. All the nerfs are, again, to cripple Ming so as they do not blob. The better way to handle this would be to make sure the Manchus have a high chance of taking over Ming when they historically did.

No, no, no, no. Remember chaos theory. From a 1444 start, such an event should hardly ever happen at the historical time. It depended on a strong Manchurian leader and a Ming weakened by internal squabbling and decline. Unless these events coincide, the takeover should not happen. China could be taken over by Mongols instead, or stay Ming until 1821.

All elements of the game should be plausible, but that also means no forced, railroaded events that make no sense in the current situation.

 

[Magean]

I agree though that it's just PI being lazy. Not necessarily historically illiterate bums. I don't think they're that bad. All the nerfs are, again, to cripple Ming so as they do not blob. The better way to handle this would be to make sure the Manchus have a high chance of taking over Ming when they historically did.

And this, in turn, brings up the issue of the diplomatic system, which is suited to post-medieval Europe, but not to the ROTW. It doesn't allow vast and rapid conquests the way they happened in the East. Like : the Ottoman destruction of the Mamluks, the Sefevid conquest of Persia, the way things went in Central Asia, the rise of the Mongols... and of course, the Qing conquest.

As for nerfing Ming... Remember EU3, when they more often than not conquered all their way till the Caspian Sea, if not further West ?

 

[LinusLinothorax]

Problem is the linearity of the tech "tree" in EU. This also ties in to the culture, religion and administration stuff that EU simulates terribly. Pdx really needs an "internal politics and stuff" dlc.

I would even go a step further: The whole technology system needs an overhaul. But i am afraid PDX wont do this, as they prefer adding new diplomatic options and other minor changes which dont require much work, and sell them overprized (AOW = 21 minor changes for 20 (!) bucks, which is just the half of the fullgames price).

 

[toroltao]

No, no, no, no. Remember chaos theory. From a 1444 start, such an event should hardly ever happen at the historical time. It depended on a strong Manchurian leader and a Ming weakened by internal squabbling and decline. Unless these events coincide, the takeover should not happen. China could be taken over by Mongols instead, or stay Ming until 1821.

All elements of the game should be plausible, but that also means no forced, railroaded events that make no sense in the current situation.

But much of the game is already pre-destined with events and lucky nations. I don't see why giving the Manchu a historically justified bonus would be detrimental to the game. In the current state we have even more ahistorical scenarios like aggressively expansionist Korea and externally colonial Japan, yet we don't have a rising Manchu nation? Seems kind of odd to me.