Chinese tech = African tech

[highsis]

I would like to believe in humanity and hope that everyone agrees to the statement that Chinese technology was superior to that of Southern African, historically speaking.

With the arrival of AOW, China now has the same tech speed as Southern Africans. What game play reason are there to support this? Let's discuss.

 

[toroltao]

I would like to believe in humanity and hope that everyone agrees to the statement that Chinese technology was superior to that of Southern African, historically speaking.

With the arrival of AOW, China now has the same tech speed as Southern Africans. What game play reason are there to support this? Let's discuss.

If not then PI would actually have to do work on China and make it not op in less retarded ways.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I would like to believe in humanity and hope that everyone agrees to the statement that Chinese technology was superior to that of Southern African, historically speaking.

With the arrival of AOW, China now has the same tech speed as Southern Africans. What game play reason are there to support this? Let's discuss.

There is a solid historical basis and gameplay reasoning that sub-Saharans wouldn't have trashed tech in 1444. They traded with the Muslim tech nations and had enough contact to merit the change.

What there isn't any basis for is Chinese tech being slower than Indian and equal to sub-Saharan, while also being already backwards compared to Europe in 1444. The issue here isn't sub-Saharan tech, at all. That just highlights how ridiculous it's been for Chinese all along.

 

[Vordeo]

I kind of get the feeling most of the restrictions on Chinese tech are primarily to keep Ming in check, gameplay-wise.

 

[FleetingRain]

I kind of get the feeling most of the restrictions on Chinese tech are primarily to keep Ming in check, gameplay-wise.

Wonder why they don't get an exclusive tech group like the Ottomans, then.

 

[Kirikano]

Basically, everything related to Ming in the game is designed to stop them from stomping the rest of the world.

 

[Freudia]

Wonder why they don't get an exclusive tech group like the Ottomans, then.

Ottoman tech group is shared by all the Anatolian Beyliks and the Ottomans, not just the Ottomans.

 

[Incompetent]

When I saw African tech was getting a buff, I was hoping the whole tech curve would get flattened considerably. Indian and Chinese tech should perhaps be a little slower than Europe, but it's hard to justify any more than 30-40% disadvantage. Westernisation, Western Arms Trade and mega tech bonus for protectorates are also bogus and really smell of the whole 'civilising mission' nonsense that Western imperialists peddled in the 19th century. Why isn't it possible for East to learn from West through trading contacts and so on?

In fact, you could say the knowledge transfer went just as much the other way: Europe would not have advanced so fast technologically if it had not been for its contact with advanced technology from other places (the Muslim world, India and the Far East). In fact, you could even say this was Europe's real strength - it was able to draw on knowledge from around the world, while other cultures fell behind due to intellectual insularity (especially the likes of China and Japan). It would be more historically accurate if Europeans started in a mediocre tech group, but were then able to modernise later once they had made contact with enough of the rest of the world.

 

[uishax]

When I saw African tech was getting a buff, I was hoping the whole tech curve would get flattened considerably. Indian and Chinese tech should perhaps be a little slower than Europe, but it's hard to justify any more than 30-40% disadvantage. Westernisation, Western Arms Trade and mega tech bonus for protectorates are also bogus and really smell of the whole 'civilising mission' nonsense that Western imperialists peddled in the 19th century. Why isn't it possible for East to learn from West through trading contacts and so on?

In fact, you could say the knowledge transfer went just as much the other way: Europe would not have advanced so fast technologically if it had not been for its contact with advanced technology from other places (the Muslim world, India and the Far East). In fact, you could even say this was Europe's real strength - it was able to draw on knowledge from around the world, while other cultures fell behind due to intellectual insularity (especially the likes of China and Japan). It would be more historically accurate if Europeans started in a mediocre tech group, but were then able to modernise later once they had made contact with enough of the rest of the world.

Knowledge transfer only goes so far, and often only transfers rudimentary parts of them, do you really need examples from the modern world? Japan didn't become a western power because they traded with westeners, it had to be through a difficult reform and transformation of society. The tech difference was appropiate pre-aow, the only issue being it inappropriate for different regions. Having SS-africa getting the same tech as China.........

 

[Evie HJ]

Subsaharan Africa's tech rate is about where it should be compared to everyone else's *except* China : a bit slower than the Muslims, slower than the Indians but not too much. That's about historical for a region that was fairly remote, but still connected to the Muslim world via trade routes, and thus still able to acquire knowledge of what was going on in those lands.

The problem here (from a HISTORICAL perspective) is purely and simply China's ridiculously bad tech rate. From a purely historical perspective, China should have around the 0.40 of the Muslim world, maybe the 0.50 of the indian one.

 

[toroltao]

Knowledge transfer only goes so far, and often only transfers rudimentary parts of them, do you really need examples from the modern world? Japan didn't become a western power because they traded with westeners, it had to be through a difficult reform and transformation of society. The tech difference was appropiate pre-aow, the only issue being it inappropriate for different regions. Having SS-africa getting the same tech as China.........

What's the point of becoming a Western nation when Western nations still weren't any more powerful than eastern ones? By the end of the Ming Dynasty Chinese ships were still running Portuguese caravels out of the South China Sea and a bunch of Ming remnants were able to push the Dutch out of Taiwan. Europeans didn't have a noticeable advantage over eastern technology until at least the end of the 16th century. The tech difference is not accurate since China has INFERIOR starting tech compared to steppe nomads AND the same tech rate as sub-saharans. 2/2/2 is not accurate no matter how you spin it.

 

[Resistance0108]

And Siberian tribes also had tech equals to China...the system is completely dumb.
Chinese tech should split to East Asian tech, Southeast Asian tech and Siberian tech.

 

[Zylathas]

They should definitely relook at tech at some point. In my opinion it should look something like this :

15% eastern european
15% Ottoman
25% Muslim
35% Indian
40% Chinese
50% sub-saharan

 

[DevastatingTech]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder

And Siberian tribes also had tech equals to China...the system is completely dumb.
Chinese tech should split to East Asian tech, Southeast Asian tech and Siberian tech.

+1

 

[wingzero890]

Chinese tech nations starting off at level 2 across the board has always been incredibly insulting, to be perfectly honest.

 

[birincikalite]

Well this is how a grand strategy game handles matters If everyone was pleased, there would be an even bigger problem anyways so dipsleasement is ok :d

 

[ahyangyi]

There is a solid historical basis and gameplay reasoning that sub-Saharans wouldn't have trashed tech in 1444. They traded with the Muslim tech nations and had enough contact to merit the change.

I don't think this is a solid reason -- the neighbor bonus is supposed to represent "the influx of knowledge when your neighbor knows more than you". If anything, give a further bonus when a sub-saharan nation allies with a better nation, just like the western trade bonus.

 

[ahyangyi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder
+1

So... Ming/Mongolia/Jurchens start with milltech level 7, then nerf the Chinese troop types at low levels so they actually fight no better than the horde ones?

Well actually 3/3/3 for China should be enough for the game.

 

[Vordeo]

Chinese tech nations starting off at level 2 across the board has always been incredibly insulting, to be perfectly honest.

I'm sure the ancient Ming are turning in their graves.

 

[Sifaus]

Problem is the linearity of the tech "tree" in EU. This also ties in to the culture, religion and administration stuff that EU simulates terribly. Pdx really needs an "internal politics and stuff" dlc.