Chinese Artisans

[OHgamer]

keep in mind that while there are techs that improve factory output efficiency, IIRC there are no techs that improve artisan efficiency, so the more the factories crank out, the lower the profit-margin will be for artisans in a given production line, and they'll either devolve into craftsmen or farmers/labourers or move to another line (like some new technological wonder that hasn't proven its profitability in game yet, making capis skiddish to start building factories.)

Now, in non-industrial societies, the spread of factory production is going to still effect the artisan class because the global market price will drop, thus making the artisan production unprofitable and resulting in devolution to farmer/labourer (as historically happened in non-industrial colonial and semicolonial societies), barring the use of tariffs to raise cost of imports to consumers (and thus protecting artisan production, which is why the British insisted on free trade agreements in the mid-19th C). At least that is what the Paradox model aims for as far as I understand it.

 

[DarthJF]

Just think of the musket and cannon production Japanese initiated in the late 1500's after first contact with Europeans, and later Hideyoshi's invasions of Korea where both sides used firearms. Firearms had been common enough in Asia for a long time at game start, and there was sufficient local knowledge on how to produce them.

These of course weren't on par with the latest European designs, but hey, that's what tech levels are for.

 

[JoeGiavani]

There have been small mills around since before Roman times. Factories in Vicky period mean urban, organised factories that employ and train workers on a large scale. Artisans represents not just skilled craftsmen working out of their garage, but also small rurual water mills, steel foundries etc.

 

[unmerged(23205)]

keep in mind that while there are techs that improve factory output efficiency, IIRC there are no techs that improve artisan efficiency, so the more the factories crank out, the lower the profit-margin will be for artisans in a given production line, and they'll either devolve into craftsmen or farmers/labourers or move to another line (like some new technological wonder that hasn't proven its profitability in game yet, making capis skiddish to start building factories.)

Now, in non-industrial societies, the spread of factory production is going to still effect the artisan class because the global market price will drop, thus making the artisan production unprofitable and resulting in devolution to farmer/labourer (as historically happened in non-industrial colonial and semicolonial societies), barring the use of tariffs to raise cost of imports to consumers (and thus protecting artisan production, which is why the British insisted on free trade agreements in the mid-19th C). At least that is what the Paradox model aims for as far as I understand it.

This doesn't happen, though. When artisans can't cover their costs they do nothing but sit there. There are no mass migrations to the cities and there is no seeking out some new, profitable craft. They will sit there and not make any money and gain militancy until you do something about it, only there isn't anything you can do about it save use a national focus point to encourage demotion (and the 10% bonus there is still ineffective in a POP of 6000 artisans that hasn't made a red cent in years).

In one respect there is precedent for this. The massive unemployment of artisans and craftsmen, especially shipbuilders, in Depression era Britain saw many try to lure them to a new trade, but many didn't want to migrate or have to start over as an apprentice when the government could intervene. This was a relatively small but vocal group of people when the majority did exactly that: they migrate to more economically stable areas and they take up new trades. This just isn't happening among the artisans. When a POP gets too large, it can't cover its costs, but it will either get larger due to migration and natural pop growth, or it will slowly trickle away in tens and twenties each month. 25 artisans a month becoming craftsmen out of 3,500 is not a migration to the factories.

 

[Darkrenown]

If you look at Singleton's review AAR for example you can see most of his middle class is doing well:

The worst part there is a small slice of yellow = part of list needs fulfilled. I don't know the details of his pops, but worst case all artisans are getting at least part of their life needs, not none. I can say in my game as JAP it's currently '79 and 2% of my artisans are getting no needs vs 89% getting full luxury needs at 30% tax and 0 tariffs.

I think part of the problem is your're only seeing a small slice of the game here, the USA at this point has huge pop CON due to the slavery debate going on, and since goods need scale with CON this gives the USA's pops much higher need than normal. Then the demo ends before things are resolved.

 

[demanvanwezel]

euhm there were some drawings found of chinese origin (specificly a bunch of demons who are attacking budha to stop him from reaching nirvana) on which a primitive version of a kind of blunderbuss (and a bomb) was drawn, so there is evidence that the chinese had acces to fire arms before the europeans did

ok so it certainly was not the latest model they used but the chinese had fire weapons

also the japanese had fire weapens before they opened the country
a japanese noble had seen a couple of dutch hunting and bought their weapons and he let his weapensmith recreate them
after a few years nearly everyone that mattered in japan had a fire arm, of course the government found this dangerous and banned them( the japanese government had a history of such laws, once they banned weeled transport)

 

[unmerged(35723)]

once they banned weeled transport)

:rofl:Citation please!

 

[unmerged(23205)]

also the japanese had fire weapens before they opened the country
a japanese noble had seen a couple of dutch hunting and bought their weapons and he let his weapensmith recreate them
after a few years nearly everyone that mattered in japan had a fire arm, of course the government found this dangerous and banned them( the japanese government had a history of such laws, once they banned weeled transport)

I read a Japanese cinema historian describe it as Japan being quick to adopt technology, but once they learn how to use it they quickly entrench themselves in tradition and refuse to innovate. But yeah, the Edo period was the time of muskets in Japanese military history. At its most uncivilized, Japanese troops would be on par with some of the best from EU3's Western tech. I'm sure you could say similar things of the rest of East Asia, especially since it had far more contact with the West (and the Ottomans, don't forget that the Age of Exploration was spurred on by the Ottomans controlling the sole trade route to the Orient and the Italian merchant republics wanting a sea route that bypassed them. Columbus was Genoese)

 

[demanvanwezel]

:rofl:Citation please!

http://books.google.be/books?id=VvP...&resnum=7&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

p46 end of line 9

 

[unmerged(35723)]

http://books.google.be/books?id=VvP...&resnum=7&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

p46 end of line 9

Saw it. Thanks a lot!

 

[Spricar]

If you look at Singleton's review AAR for example you can see most of his middle class is doing well:

The worst part there is a small slice of yellow = part of list needs fulfilled. I don't know the details of his pops, but worst case all artisans are getting at least part of their life needs, not none. I can say in my game as JAP it's currently '79 and 2% of my artisans are getting no needs vs 89% getting full luxury needs at 30% tax and 0 tariffs.

I think part of the problem is your're only seeing a small slice of the game here, the USA at this point has huge pop CON due to the slavery debate going on, and since goods need scale with CON this gives the USA's pops much higher need than normal. Then the demo ends before things are resolved.

Hm... this could be really bad...

 

[unmerged(21215)]

Yeah, I think what your artisans can produce, ought to be limited by what technologies you posess.

 

[DarthJF]

euhm there were some drawings found of chinese origin (specificly a bunch of demons who are attacking budha to stop him from reaching nirvana) on which a primitive version of a kind of blunderbuss (and a bomb) was drawn, so there is evidence that the chinese had acces to fire arms before the europeans did

Well they're the ones who invented gunpowder and first rockets after all. Later on Mongols copied Chinese rocket technology and there are several instances in which they used them against Europeans and Arabs.

also the japanese had fire weapens before they opened the country
a japanese noble had seen a couple of dutch hunting and bought their weapons and he let his weapensmith recreate them
after a few years nearly everyone that mattered in japan had a fire arm, of course the government found this dangerous and banned them( the japanese government had a history of such laws, once they banned weeled transport)

Rather the weapons spread to Japan after couple Portuguese sailors shipwrecked on Tanegashima in Japan and the local lord purchased one or two muskets from them. And the ban on firearms came only after Tokugawa Shogunate had unified the warring feudal lords under it's rule and acquired monopoly on musket production. After that they were no longer needed and the creation of new weapons effectively ceased.

 

[unmerged(23205)]

I don't know, everything is abstracted and covers more than just what the resource literally is. "Coal" is just a symbol for that which makes industry function. Almost every RGO in the Niger Delta produces coal when it history it didn't produce a pound of it. What it's symbolic for is palm oil, which the region was abundant in, and which the British quickly capitalized on as a crucial industrial lubricant.

Coal was chosen as the symbol for industry fuel because that particular resource was incredibly important to force projection across the globe. It didn't matter how big your army was or how many steamers you have, they all had limited range that was dependent on the stockpiles of coaling stations scattered across the world.

 

[Variton]

Yeah, I think what your artisans can produce, ought to be limited by what technologies you posess.

This is so, Tegus wrote this:
" The good discovered gets a global demand. Artisans can only produce the good if you have discovered the tech that unlocks the good. Factories can only be built once the tech for the actual factory is discovered."

on the monopoly - thread:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=490564

Perhaps the Chinese got the techs?

 

[General Guisan]

Regarding China, at least Paradox seems to have put Nanjing on the correct side of the river now. Maybe correcting the issue with the - according to Paradox but no history book - "independent" state in the South-West of China, and the region might finally be modelled better than before.

 

[lila-laune-bär]

[...]since goods need scale with CON this gives the USA's pops much higher need than normal. Then the demo ends before things are resolved.

Goods needs scale with CON? Oh. I had my entire country at about 9 Consciousness straight. Interesting way of building up consumer demand.

 

[Baneslave]

Goods needs scale with CON? Oh. I had my entire country at about 9 Consciousness straight. Interesting way of building up consumer demand.

Yeah, and satisfied needs also increase CON, which makes it even more interesting.

 

[Darkrenown]

Hm... this could be really bad...

What's bad?

 

[Andrelvis]

Yeah, I think what your artisans can produce, ought to be limited by what technologies you posess.

It should be already, or else they would be producing cars too