Chinese Artisans

[Alex_brunius]

Am I the only one that thinks its slightly weird to have China be the top world producer of Steel, Machine Parts, Small Arms and Artillery by huge amounts in 1840?

I mean its all fine with "cottage" production, but these goods are not the kind I imagine when I think of Chinese artisans crafting things in their small cottages on the countryside.

In my current game they are producing more machine parts then the rest of the world combined pretty much, Thereby accelerating the Industrial revolution everywhere except in China.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Am I the only one that thinks its slightly weird to have China be the top world producer of Steel, Machine Parts, Small Arms and Artillery by huge amounts in 1840?

I mean its all fine with "cottage" production, but these goods are not the kind I imagine when I think of Chinese artisans crafting things in their small cottages on the countryside.

In my current game they are producing more machine parts then the rest of the world combined pretty much, Thereby accelerating the Industrial revolution everywhere except in China.

Afaik, it has been said (great reference, I know) that at the start of the games time frame china was the worlds largest producer of finished goods in the world. Industrialization later brought cheep goods that ruined most of the later on.

EDIT
Probably not historical in what they actually produce, but that is an issue in the way artisans chose what to make. The huge amount of artisans is however historical afaik.

 

[Hardcore_gamer]

It appears Paradox still has some balancing to do.....

 

[Vargas]

Machine Parts, yes, its strange.

Steel, small arms, artillery, no. We are talking about a pre-industrial era. The production of steel were smal compared to 1900, for example. China was, indeed, the greatest producer of most goods in that time, since they were huge. When western nations begin building enormous structures, field guns and stell warships, well, then the Chinese will fall behind.

 

[Baneslave]

I mean its all fine with "cottage" production, but these goods are not the kind I imagine when I think of Chinese artisans crafting things in their small cottages on the countryside.

All production before 1800s was done by Artisans, so I guess all those cannons and muskets were made in small cottages as well.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Machine Parts, yes, its strange.

Steel, small arms, artillery, no. We are talking about a pre-industrial era. The production of steel were smal compared to 1900, for example. China was, indeed, the greatest producer of most god in that time, since they were huge. When western nations begin building enormous structures and gun and ships, well, then the Chinese will fall behind.

Wow, they produced the most god? Did the chinese 19th century QA people stamp them with their zeal of approval?

 

[eleinvisible]

I think the effectiveness of Artisans everywhere is a bit too high compared to starting factories. Rather than reducing artisans efficiency, factories should start off a quite a bit better, so as to not mess up the world wide production balance (factories would drive artisans out of business quicker, though).

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Perhaps artisans in uncivs should be barred from producing certain complex goods.

 

[hhyy_best]

I think the fundamental problem comes with the province product model. For example, a province producing tea DOES NOT mean all the population is planting tea trees. In current design, all the population is working on the product plus the fact that Chian has a large population caused many problems.

In my oppenion, every province should have at least 90% of it's population locked as farmers and producing food to meet the food demands. And only with the tech growth can this proportion decrease.

 

[Baneslave]

Perhaps artisans in uncivs should be barred from producing certain complex goods.

IIRC, what Artisans can produce is limited by technologies, so there is that.

 

[OHgamer]

I think the fundamental problem comes with the province product model. For example, a province producing tea DOES NOT mean all the population is planting tea trees. In current design, all the population is working on the product plus the fact that Chian has a large population caused many problems.

In my oppenion, every province should have at least 90% of it's population locked as farmers and producing food to meet the food demands. And only with the tech growth can this proportion decrease.

In most non-industrial nations, farmers/labourers are 90% of the province POP or more. Artisans run approx 3-6% depending on the society, the balance elite specialists - aristos, bureuacrats, clergy, officers and soldiers.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Machine Parts, yes, its strange.

Steel, small arms, artillery, no. We are talking about a pre-industrial era. The production of steel were smal compared to 1900, for example. China was, indeed, the greatest producer of most goods in that time, since they were huge. When western nations begin building enormous structures, field guns and stell warships, well, then the Chinese will fall behind.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the Chinese fought mainly with swords and bow/arrow during the first opium war (1840). And that the few firearms and guns they did have were bought from Europe.

I don't really see how that can fit in with them being a massive exporter of steel, firearms and artillery in Victoria 2.

 

[unmerged(35723)]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the Chinese fought mainly with swords and bow/arrow during the first opium war (1840). And that the few firearms and guns they did have were bought from Europe.

I don't really see how that can fit in with them being a massive exporter of steel, firearms and artillery in Victoria 2.

Unfortunately, you are wrong.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Unfortunately, you are wrong.

Then I will blame wikipedia for portraying most Chinese wielding swords!

Put it this way then, how many Chinese developed and made firearms and cannons were the English historically using during the Opium wars?

 

[unmerged(76495)]

I don't really see how that can fit in with them being a massive exporter of steel, firearms and artillery in Victoria 2.

It fits because the Dev team had a finite amount of time to make the game and choose to cut some corners to produce a finished, polished game. Yes the game is the not a perfect simulation of real life. Far from it. There are countless areas where you scratch your head and say hmmmm. For instance, the price for any good is the same in Sk. Petersburg as it is in the heart of Siberia. Very unrealistic. But theres nothing wrong with cutting corners. All games operated under a time and cost budget, Victoria had especially little of either. Therefore they must cut corners or theyĺl end up as Duke Nukem Forever. I would like to play Victoria. Therefore I accept that they have to cut corners to be finished. And despite all its many small quirks, it is still looking like the most accurate portrayal of the Victorian age. Far more so than Ricky.

EDIT: Relax

 

[unmerged(23205)]

I think the effectiveness of Artisans everywhere is a bit too high compared to starting factories. Rather than reducing artisans efficiency, factories should start off a quite a bit better, so as to not mess up the world wide production balance (factories would drive artisans out of business quicker, though).

The problem is that artisans should be driven out of work locally, but an increase in factory profit would affect all artisans domestically. Since there's no competition between factroys and artisans, I can't see how they'll be driven out of business at all. All prices are determined by the world market so the only difference is in production. Production is cumulative, not competitive.

I think the problem with artisans is that they choose stupid things to produce and refuse to change when they can't meet the input requirements. They just sit and foment and gain militancy when they refuse to change. This is great for a model of 1930s Britain, but right now the only artisans making money are the small pops of 100 or less and those few groups of 1000 or so that randomly choose a profitable cottage industry like glass. Anything else is either going to have 1 day of Life Needs for 3 days of Poverty or live in squalor like a nation of starving artists. If they could migrate to an artisan POP that produced another resource or were more willing to demote to craftsmen or laborers, this wouldn't be a problem. They don't do that. Instead we get 50-70% of artisans going years without making a dime and doing nothing about it.

 

[Maginor]

Then I will blame wikipedia for portraying most Chinese wielding swords!

Put it this way then, how many Chinese developed and made firearms and cannons were the English historically using during the Opium wars?

Using swords in close quarter combat like that is not a bad idea. Maybe they put down their guns. And there is a chinese musket guy to the left.

 

[Baldamundo]

I thought artisans could only make what they have the tech for. How do China have the tech for machine parts?

 

[unmerged(45977)]

The problem is that artisans should be driven out of work locally, but an increase in factory profit would affect all artisans domestically. Since there's no competition between factroys and artisans, I can't see how they'll be driven out of business at all. All prices are determined by the world market so the only difference is in production. Production is cumulative, not competitive.

But factories can be more competitive because they can be more efficient. Artisans can't become more efficient but factories can. As a result factories will be able to produce more products for less money.

In the beginning artisans should be more profitable than in the end. But in the demo I don't see any wealthy artisans so I could be wrong.

 

[unmerged(35723)]

Then I will blame wikipedia for portraying most Chinese wielding swords!

Put it this way then, how many Chinese developed and made firearms and cannons were the English historically using during the Opium wars?

Obviously I am not here claiming the Chinese were more advanced in firearms technology at the time. The Chinese were in their transaction period from relying on traditional weapons to using more firearms. The humiliating defeat was not solely caused by technological disadvantage, which was once commonly believed.

Indeed, it would be ridiculous to image Red Coats using China-made firearms. However, China did have their own version of firearms produced in quantity, such as gingalls.

This kind of weapon could not fire at the same speed as muskets. However they were more powerful and had better range. The reload speed disadvantage could possibly be offset by numerical advantage.