China's nieghbors in 1492

[Secret Master]

Fellow arm-chair emperors,

I was wondering what counrties bordered China by land in 1492, and which direction they did so geographically. I cant seem to find any decent maps of the period that show things well, or that can even be translated into EU provinces.

Also, if anyone is particularly brilliant, could they tell me what kind of relations they had to China, and maybe Japan and Korea?

 

[unmerged(4745)]

Chinese borders

North Manchuria and Mongol tribes,
Northeast Korea, partly as a protectorate
South Annam, Thailand and Burma states.
Burma and Annam was now and then Chinese protectorates as Korea.
West we will find Tibet and differen Turk tribes.

With the exception that the tribal states were nomadic so the had no fixed areas. At least Korea, Annam, Thai states, Burman states and Tibet had fixed borders.

As you mentioned the historic maps over areas outside Europe and Mid-East are not that detailed. You can find almost everey Italian city state or German fief but in East Asia they are like paited with the biggest brush.

 

[Secret Master]

Thanks Sten for the assistance. I do have one question, though. Was Manchuria a real nation state like China and Nippon, or was it more like natives in a province.

In case no one has guessed it, I am trying to play with the ICG to flesh out Asia alot more. I intend to do an AAR of Nippon, but I want Asia to be accurately represented as possible, even if i have to steal tags from elsewhere to do it.

 

[unmerged(4745)]

Manchuria

I think it was somthing in between a tribal state and a kingdom/empire that time. Like Sweden, Norway and Denmark in 10-11th century.

 

[Agelastus]

The Manchu regions did contain a significant number of Chinese colonists as a leavening to the tribal nature of their original state (I can't recall when exactly the lands within the "Willow palisade" were incorporated but the whole area had been under the regional influence of Chinese culture for a long time-the Manchu were not the first "sinicised" people to have a nation in the region.)

So I'd describe them as a country.nation myself, rather than tribal lands...........

 

[unmerged(3408)]

The Manchus were a different people than the Han, who most of us would think of as the "Chinese." That's an important point to remember when discussing this issue.

They had a different culture, history, government....everything that could be defined as a seperate "country." The Manchu's invaded China in 1644 and diposed the Ming dynasty. In the begining they retained their individual culture but soon became more Chinese than the Chinese.

In essence, the Manchus conquored China. In return, China "conquored" the Manchus. Now I would say that Manchuria can no longer be considered seperate from China. But that was not the case in 1492.

 

[Secret Master]

So, if I was going to add a country to Asia in the original EU map(assuming I have the ICG 2.3), I would keep China's borders the same, but add a country caled Manchuria directly north, bording on the PTI. I would give them low cavalry costs, maybe about 4 or 5 provinces, really bad relations with everyone else, and maybe a CB against China and on some of her provinces.

From what your telling me, I might also want to make Korea a vassal of China, but with neutral relations to prevent early diplo-annexation. May Ialso assume that China, Nippon, Korea, and the Manchus all had similar tech levels during the period? This is all really good stuff. Thanks for the input.

 

[Agelastus]

Originally posted by Secret Master
So, if I was going to add a country to Asia in the original EU map(assuming I have the ICG 2.3), I would keep China's borders the same, but add a country caled Manchuria directly north, bording on the PTI. I would give them low cavalry costs, maybe about 4 or 5 provinces, really bad relations with everyone else, and maybe a CB against China and on some of her provinces.

Er...............most of the Manchu lands are part of the Chinese empire in EU GC/IGC, including their heartland. Although including the area of the Amur and Attur rivers (the treaty of Nerchinsk frontiers I mean) would be quite appropriate, and historically better than EU-you shouldn't be able to establish Vladivostok quite as early as you can!

 

[Secret Master]

So, it might be more appropriate carve out a Manchuria from China's northern provinces then? Maybe add a currently unclaimed province or two?

 

[Agelastus]

Originally posted by Secret Master
So, it might be more appropriate carve out a Manchuria from China's northern provinces then? Maybe add a currently unclaimed province or two?

Yes.................

But I just looked things up, and discovered that the Manchu's founder, Nurhachi, lived from 1559-1626, and that prior to that the Ming had been playing a divide and rule strategy with the three main tribal groupings of the Juchen (the proto-Manchu grouping) complicated by a resurgence of Mongol power.

So I'm now extremely confused as to how they can be in EU2, or at least, as a single nation........................

 

[Secret Master]

Then it might be appropriate to give them a nation, but with really crappy monarchs, lowest stability, etc, until the middle 1500s. Similar in set up to the current Golden Hoarde. Since China starts pretty weak in ICG 2.3 (minus the huge fortresses and armies, that is) she wont be able to annex them by force very easily. May have to give them some events that keep them unstable until then. Id have to make surethey have CB on China, as well as China having CB on them. Seems I am going to have to rape a tag from somewhere else, and give it to them. This could really keep things lively in Asia.

I really appreaciate the help.

 

[unmerged(3408)]

From http://www.encyclopedia.com:

The Manchu people lived in Manchuria for many centuries and ruled China from 1644 until 1912. These people, related to the Tungus, were descended from the Jurchen, a tribe known in Asia since the 7th cent. They were first called Manchu in the early 17th cent. Originally pastoral nomads in Manchuria, the Manchu (or Jurchen) swept into N China in the early 12th cent. but were forced by the Mongols to withdraw in the mid-13th cent. The Manchu settled in the Songhua River valley and developed an agrarian civilization. Under the emperor Nurhachu (1559-1626) they secured the allegiance of many tribes and increased their territory. The Manchu claim of relation to the Ch'in dynasty of China was the justification for conquering China in the 17th cent. and establishing the Ch'ing dynasty. The Manchu tried to keep themselves from being absorbed by the Chinese, but when the dynasty was overthrown in the 20th cent. these efforts failed; gradually, they became part of the general Chinese population.

So yes, they should be in EU.

 

[unmerged(4386)]

borrow from Lords of the Earth

You could borrow some map information from another game called "Lords of the Earth". There is a campaign 12 that started with a historical 1600 AD start. Go to:

www.throneworld.com/lords/index.jsp

Once on the main index page, pick lote-12, which will take you to the campaign of that number. On the campaign 12 page, there are links to the maps. Just load the GIFs and look at the maps of the game. That should give you a pretty good idea of where to put countries, as some serious effort went into that campaign start-up, which is not to say that it's totally accurate. The game has run for about 9 two-year turns so far, and some borders may have changed...

 

[unmerged(5934)]

If you are to detail East Asia, remember: every neighbour of China has proven itself both very proficient in war and very intensely nationalist; otherwise, otherwise they would have become chinese by now! I don't remember who said this, but it's true. Mongols, Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Burmese, Tibetans, Turks, all do have a fearsome reputation. Don´t forget tibetans, they may be bhuddists, but they carved a great empire in its time.

 

[unmerged(5459)]

Originally posted by Alatriste
Don´t forget tibetans, they may be bhuddists, but they carved a great empire in its time.

With their kickass cool jumping Buddhist ninja armies!

 

[driftwood]

The Jurchens, like many other peoples bordering China, borrowed part or all of their culture from China in the Sung period and then adapted it to fit their needs. See Mote's Imperial China: 900-1800, which is only a couple of years old, for great descriptions and maps.

The Jurchens (the "Wild Jurchens" as they're sometimes called) conquered much of northern Sung China, calling themselves the Jin dynasty. Similar states (in orginization and culture) were the Xi Xia in the west, bordering the Gobi, and the Western Liao (Kara Khitai) even further west. That was in ~1200.

The map I have of the north around 1600 has a variety of small Mongol groups on the Chinese border: the Tumed in the northern loop of the Yellow River, then the Chahar and Uriyangkhad Mongols splitting the area up to the Liao River, then the Jurchen tribes working their way up the coast past the Amur River.

Sorry if my geography is imprecise. I'm really interested in Chinese history but have not been able to find very much to read on it. Faribank's China and this book by Mote make up a big chunk of what I know (and I've forgotten half of it). Hope that helps somewhat.

BTW, if anyone can recommend any good books on Imperial China, let me know.

driftwood

 

[unmerged(3236)]

Originally posted by Secret Master
In case no one has guessed it, I am trying to play with the ICG to flesh out Asia alot more. I intend to do an AAR of Nippon, but I want Asia to be accurately represented as possible, even if i have to steal tags from elsewhere to do it.

You will love eu2
almost not a gree province north of the oceans and south of the sibir corridor and there is MUCH more land there

 

[Secret Master]

Hey Lars,

Your right, I do love EU2! This thread was posted before EU2 got to my doorstep. I quit the Nippon project for EU when I became aware of the new features in EU2. (And forgot to tell this thread.)

As a matter of fact, once my Burdundy AAR for EU2 is done, I will have a Nippon one... Stay tuned for more information.

 

[unmerged(2392)]

Originally posted by Petrus
The Manchus were a different people than the Han, who most of us would think of as the "Chinese." That's an important point to remember when discussing this issue.

They had a different culture, history, government....everything that could be defined as a seperate "country." The Manchu's invaded China in 1644 and diposed the Ming dynasty. In the begining they retained their individual culture but soon became more Chinese than the Chinese.

In essence, the Manchus conquored China. In return, China "conquored" the Manchus. Now I would say that Manchuria can no longer be considered seperate from China. But that was not the case in 1492.

The Manchus did not depose the Ming dynasty. They tried, but somebody else succeeded before them.

The Ming dynasty positioned its strongest army in the north to face the Manchus. However, during the last years of the Ming dynasty most of the country was in peasant revolt. It was the rebels who captured the Ming capital and forced and Ming emperor to commit suicide. At that point, the Ming general in charge of their last remaining army made a deal with the Manchus. Their combined army defeated the rebel main army and then proceeded to conquer the entire China from the remnants of the rebels and the last remaining princes of the Ming dynasty.