China vs Japan, your thoughts

[21oliver]

First off by May 1st or so I have all the trades in place i need. As China its all about being quick if I want war on July 1st. So I stockpile, I dont worry about getting the best prices (that takes too long and sometimes you cant get as much as you want). I also before I go to war cancel all my trades, thus saving my convoys and I have all the resources i need to last years (including rares). And as I stated I am usually buying PLs from Japan much earlier then from the US do to the elements i mentioned above and thus can actually use them much earlier. Its not a matter of which are better (although early on the US items arent the greatest) its how soon I can use them.

I sell lots of supplies, usually 100-120, probably 1/3 of my IC. I dont worry about it, as i have enough troops to either stop Japan from invading or to start the invasion of Manchukuo. I need to sell that many supplies to load up on resources so i can cancel my trades before war and save my convoys (too expensive to try and keep building convoys to maintain the trades).

 

[yamato2cz]

First off by May 1st or so I have all the trades in place i need. As China its all about being quick if I want war on July 1st. So I stockpile, I dont worry about getting the best prices (that takes too long and sometimes you cant get as much as you want). I also before I go to war cancel all my trades, thus saving my convoys and I have all the resources i need to last years (including rares). And as I stated I am usually buying PLs from Japan much earlier then from the US do to the elements i mentioned above and thus can actually use them much earlier. Its not a matter of which are better (although early on the US items arent the greatest) its how soon I can use them.

I sell lots of supplies, usually 100-120, probably 1/3 of my IC. I dont worry about it, as i have enough troops to either stop Japan from invading or to start the invasion of Manchukuo. I need to sell that many supplies to load up on resources so i can cancel my trades before war and save my convoys (too expensive to try and keep building convoys to maintain the trades).

do you upgrade militia to infantry, and do you get mountain infantry?

 

[21oliver]

I havent really played much with a Militia based Army in ages, hence why i opened up the other thread. In regards to this thread I play a variety of options. MILx3 are consistently my garrison force and I use either Mtnx3 or Mtnx4 or INFx3 or INFx3/Artx1 as my main force. Ive played alot of National China lately playing around with all types of combos.

 

[21oliver]

I was mistaken, my memory failed me..I dont get in the Axis corner as fast as I remembered. Its probably almost equal in time to go in either direction, maybe a slight bit faster towards the Axis due to the Minister and my type of Government.

In my current game as a reference I have sold 120 supplies (half to each the US and Soviet Union) and have purchased Energyx100, Metalx100, Rarex83...this is how i stockpile. Sometimes i am able to get even more rares (if they arent already being sold, or go through the UK). I usually like to leave a little surplus of cash (Im currently around +$1-$1.50), once i get more then $500 I usually spend the surplus on fuel or oil. Come War time (Jul 1, 1937 or whenever) I cancel my trades and live off my stockpile until Japan is defeated.

 

[yamato2cz]

I was mistaken, my memory failed me..I dont get in the Axis corner as fast as I remembered. Its probably almost equal in time to go in either direction, maybe a slight bit faster towards the Axis due to the Minister and my type of Government.

In my current game as a reference I have sold 120 supplies (half to each the US and Soviet Union) and have purchased Energyx100, Metalx100, Rarex83...this is how i stockpile. Sometimes i am able to get even more rares (if they arent already being sold, or go through the UK). I usually like to leave a little surplus of cash (Im currently around +$1-$1.50), once i get more then $500 I usually spend the surplus on fuel or oil. Come War time (Jul 1, 1937 or whenever) I cancel my trades and live off my stockpile until Japan is defeated.

you can get relations with US on 200 and buy rares on 1 forth or so of its price and sell stuff twice as expensive as it is. that way you can build up massive money stockpile that you can use in war to trade with GB if you dont have direct access to SU because otherwise you will trade with SU via convoys.

 

[21oliver]

Im aware of trading with GB via land (France too btw) thx, lately i have been going to war with everyone pretty much, and as i said i stockpile and im not worried about maintaining trades once war starts, I have plenty of what i need to hold me over until i get more. Typically im over 30k rares and over 50k energy and metal by Jul 1 1937...

As I have mentioned I prefer stockpiling as National China to be able to 1) get as many resources as I can by Jul 1 1937 and 2) so i can stop trades on Jul 1 1937 and save on my convoys. For this reason I cant worry about getting the best prices, I want as much as i can get as fast as i can get it. I actually can afford to spare the IC selling supplies (I typically am selling 120) as I am able to field enough of a force to suit my needs to start the war or defend it in Jul 1, 1937. You can prevent Marco Polo with simply 20-25 divisions on the border with Manhukuo. And if you have a bit more then that you can actually begin offensive ops.

Some of the problems with attempting to get good relations in trading include 1) The delay time between trades, not to mention if you ever get refused a trade takes quite some time to get your relations up. It requires far more LS invested this way as well. Also there is every bit of a chance that the nation you are trading with may sell some of the items you had earmarked for yourself (especially rares). For example the US is showing a surplus of 60 rares. You decide you want to buy 50 from them. By the time you work your trades up to a 200 relation, now the US may be showing a surplus of 35 rares. Another factor is the amount of resources lost in the months it takes before you actually start purchasing large quantities. If Im buying 100 metal a day, and it takes you 3 months to make your first 50 metal trade, thats alot of metal i have stockpiled.

Whatever method people choose is mostly dependent on the nation and what your goals are. For Nationalist China this works well for me. If I choose not to go to war right away, i can easily max out Energy & Metal, and have 50-70k rares.

 

[yamato2cz]

Im aware of trading with GB via land (France too btw) thx, lately i have been going to war with everyone pretty much, and as i said i stockpile and im not worried about maintaining trades once war starts, I have plenty of what i need to hold me over until i get more. Typically im over 30k rares and over 50k energy and metal by Jul 1 1937...

As I have mentioned I prefer stockpiling as National China to be able to 1) get as many resources as I can by Jul 1 1937 and 2) so i can stop trades on Jul 1 1937 and save on my convoys. For this reason I cant worry about getting the best prices, I want as much as i can get as fast as i can get it. I actually can afford to spare the IC selling supplies (I typically am selling 120) as I am able to field enough of a force to suit my needs to start the war or defend it in Jul 1, 1937. You can prevent Marco Polo with simply 20-25 divisions on the border with Manhukuo. And if you have a bit more then that you can actually begin offensive ops.

Some of the problems with attempting to get good relations in trading include 1) The delay time between trades, not to mention if you ever get refused a trade takes quite some time to get your relations up. It requires far more LS invested this way as well. Also there is every bit of a chance that the nation you are trading with may sell some of the items you had earmarked for yourself (especially rares). For example the US is showing a surplus of 60 rares. You decide you want to buy 50 from them. By the time you work your trades up to a 200 relation, now the US may be showing a surplus of 35 rares. Another factor is the amount of resources lost in the months it takes before you actually start purchasing large quantities. If Im buying 100 metal a day, and it takes you 3 months to make your first 50 metal trade, thats alot of metal i have stockpiled.

Whatever method people choose is mostly dependent on the nation and what your goals are. For Nationalist China this works well for me. If I choose not to go to war right away, i can easily max out Energy & Metal, and have 50-70k rares.

in LS it costs you like 50-75 LS/days to get what you want from US. thats like. not alot. even for china. and you can use US and still wage war succesfully with either SU and Allies at the same time.

 

[21oliver]

The LS was really a minor issue compared to say the time required / amount of trades to max out. Actually your relations with the Soviet Union are best. It ends up being a trade off of IC vs price, I usually dont mind spending the IC as Nat China early on as I can still have as many units as I want when I want them. Naturally I prefer getting the best price, if it doesnt cost me the stockpile i want. My main concern usually is (as I mentioned) rares, as they may be partially gone by the time i can get my relations with the US up. I can usually get some from the UK if needed.

Next game I'll try min/maxing and see where my stockpiles end up. The thing with China is the extra IC will only help so much as the terrain and supply issues are so bad in Manchukuo you don't need or want more than X amount of units anyway. So then your savings becomes more of a longterm deal. I'll give it a shot anyway.

 

[yamato2cz]

The LS was really a minor issue compared to say the time required / amount of trades to max out. Actually your relations with the Soviet Union are best. It ends up being a trade off of IC vs price, I usually dont mind spending the IC as Nat China early on as I can still have as many units as I want when I want them. Naturally I prefer getting the best price, if it doesnt cost me the stockpile i want. My main concern usually is (as I mentioned) rares, as they may be partially gone by the time i can get my relations with the US up. I can usually get some from the UK if needed.

Next game I'll try min/maxing and see where my stockpiles end up. The thing with China is the extra IC will only help so much as the terrain and supply issues are so bad in Manchukuo you don't need or want more than X amount of units anyway. So then your savings becomes more of a longterm deal. I'll give it a shot anyway.

you know that for relation raise of 15 points you only need actuall trade? it doesnt matter th amount of traded goods. you can sell them like 1 supply.

 

[21oliver]

Yeah I know...

So after two tests Im sticking with what works well for me. I ran in to a number of issues some foreseen others not, which again reminded me why i dont go this route unless if playing certain nations. First off I wrongly assumed that your convoy usage was based on "weight/quantity" of resources, its not its obviously based on trades. My first test game I ran out of convoys just as I was maxing out my relations with the US & Soviet Union. So next game I built convoys from the start, the problem is there is a one month gap from when I max out my relations and when the convoys are finished, that i cannot trade. Meanwhile in my stockpiling games, i have all the convoys i need at the games start. In the 2nd game as I mentioned might happen, when I maxed out my relations, the Soviet Union no longer had rares to sell. It makes no sense getting them from the UK at that point as it defeats the whole purpose of the process.

In the end I found im going to "sell" a similiar quantity of supplies, so for me it makes more sense my way. It requires less leadership, I dont have to build convoys, I get all the resources I want. The whole point of even trying to get better deals is to either 1) save supplies or 2) be able to buy more resources due to lesser price. I have the IC to burn selling supplies and I am buying 100xEnergy 100xMetal and 75-85xRares how much more do I need?

Overall for China for me it makes much more sense to go my route. But thats based on going to war on Jul 1 1937...

 

[yamato2cz]

Yeah I know...

So after two tests Im sticking with what works well for me. I ran in to a number of issues some foreseen others not, which again reminded me why i dont go this route unless if playing certain nations. First off I wrongly assumed that your convoy usage was based on "weight/quantity" of resources, its not its obviously based on trades. My first test game I ran out of convoys just as I was maxing out my relations with the US & Soviet Union. So next game I built convoys from the start, the problem is there is a one month gap from when I max out my relations and when the convoys are finished, that i cannot trade. Meanwhile in my stockpiling games, i have all the convoys i need at the games start. In the 2nd game as I mentioned might happen, when I maxed out my relations, the Soviet Union no longer had rares to sell. It makes no sense getting them from the UK at that point as it defeats the whole purpose of the process.

In the end I found im going to "sell" a similiar quantity of supplies, so for me it makes more sense my way. It requires less leadership, I dont have to build convoys, I get all the resources I want. The whole point of even trying to get better deals is to either 1) save supplies or 2) be able to buy more resources due to lesser price. I have the IC to burn selling supplies and I am buying 100xEnergy 100xMetal and 75-85xRares how much more do I need?

Overall for China for me it makes much more sense to go my route. But thats based on going to war on Jul 1 1937...

didnt know that. well, i will adjust my strategy to more of yours style next time i play as china. good talking with you, thank you for this info, hopefully i would be able to utilize it somehow in the future MP.

 

[Less]

You can get licenses faster by aligning to the Axis, your in their corner. I just licensed some LC's very early in 1936.

Can't get Paratroopers though.

Conquering via Paradrops is considered Gamey! First off too expensive and has minimal use (Para as opposed to other divisions) also how and where are you hitting? Most of Japans ports are usually covered.

It's pretty cheap really. 4 transports + a few dozen paratroopers can do it. Far cheaper than building a fleet.

I'd say a fleet has minimal use after you invade Japan. Paratroopers and air transport work beautifully in Russia/India, wherever your next target is.

I sell lots of supplies, usually 100-120, probably 1/3 of my IC. I dont worry about it, as i have enough troops to either stop Japan from invading or to start the invasion of Manchukuo. I need to sell that many supplies to load up on resources so i can cancel my trades before war and save my convoys (too expensive to try and keep building convoys to maintain the trades).

Trade with UK, since you share a land border there are no convoys required. Same for Soviets after you take Manchukuo

Next game I'll try min/maxing and see where my stockpiles end up. The thing with China is the extra IC will only help so much as the terrain and supply issues are so bad in Manchukuo you don't need or want more than X amount of units anyway. So then your savings becomes more of a longterm deal. I'll give it a shot anyway.

This is exactly what transport planes do for you, easy supplying everything.

 

[_karl_]

On the importance of stockpiling resources: http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201510240021

"According to six volumes of a work diary kept during the process, the behemoth never made it out of the prototype stage due to a shortage of steel plates as the war took a turn for the worse."

 

[21oliver]

Can't get Paratroopers though.

I seldom use Para. I find their use limiting as I stated.

It's pretty cheap really. 4 transports + a few dozen paratroopers can do it. Far cheaper than building a fleet.

As China I can get around with simply CL's early on until I add some CV or CVLs, for the price of the above I can build quite alot. And as I tend to move around Asia alot, the fleet for me is far more useful than Transport aircraft limited by airbase availability.

Trade with UK, since you share a land border there are no convoys required. Same for Soviets after you take Manchukuo

Typically I go to war with both. As Ive stated my trade strategy, by Jul 1st, 1937 I have no need for anymore trading, so I don't need them as trading partners.

This is exactly what transport planes do for you, easy supplying everything.

I dont really bother using Transports for supply, I work around it in other ways. Also in Manchukuo it isnt a place where I would really use them tbh.

 

[21oliver]

If you want to get PL's its definitely easier to align to the Axis to get them (Even Para, you can get from Germany). I just spent 6 months aligning to the UK and was still drifting to the Axis. Normally if I would have aligned to the Axis AND used my Axis minister I would have been much closer to my goal of getting PLs.

 

[Less]

Only USA starts with Paratroopers, otherwise it's a 1939 tech, which means German AI will probably get it closer to 1940 and it will be halfway through 1940 before you can crank out the paratroopers (though I haven't tested it, maybe AI rushes the tech better). Pretty long wait IMO, you can get license Paratroopers from USA in 1938 if you align allies.

 

[21oliver]

Ahh Ok. well for me my main interest is LC's not para. Also I can license CLs which are better then what i can produce initially. Its easier and quicker for me to align to the Axis even if I plan on DOWing them.

you can get license Paratroopers from USA in 1938 if you align allies

Thats the thing for me, as China im at War in Jul 1937, by 1938 I want to be well on my way...

I am going to try swapping this game start off heading towards the Axis, get what i want, then align to the Allies and when Im at war with Japan they usually join the Axis so well see how fast i can drift in the Allies direction.

 

[21oliver]

Im not sure if i could have done it earlier but on Apr 1, 1936 I was able to buy PLs from Japan...

 

[Less]

Are you not building a fleet at all and simply suiciding a bunch of transports to land forces? I've always thought that pretty gamey and try to resist. I assumed you were actually defeating Japan in the Pacific before landing when I said that Paratrooper drops would be more effective.

 

[21oliver]

Well if i go to war in 1937, I generally dont try and attack the mainland until 38 or 39 and basically have a few CVLs and some CLs, i usually dont go head to head with the Japanese navy. I find myself any fleet i build overall more useful than para as I would normally continue my ops throughout Asia and all the various isles, and nations. I am interested in using some as China though now!