China, the 19th century industrial powerhouse

[The Yogi]

In my current GC, China is a monster - longtime nr 1 of industrial development, now in 1872 second only to my Germany.

China has defeated the British Empire and taken Burma in the 1850s, and is currently gobbling up the Russian Far East posesions!

I find the idea of a 19th century Chinese industrialization utterly ludicrous. China was backwards, introverted, and couldn't any more have been industrial leader of the world than can Somalia today. The Manchu Empire was in shambles.

China should be a playground for European colonial powers to fool around with.

 

[unmerged(11982)]

Jeez, do you want things to go EXACTLY as history tells us every game? Play some more GCs ... I have seen hugely different results in every game so far. Havent seen what you describe in any so far, though have with countries other than China. Its part of what gives Vicky replayability ..and you want it "fixed"?


Myros

 

[Alexander Seil]

This is part of what gives Vicky its unplayability (however little that might amount to, in the long run ). China was absolutely screwed in that time period.

 

[unmerged(18269)]

do you want things to go EXACTLY as history tells us every game?

No.
But I do want it to be almost impossible for China to be even an "independent nation" much less a Great Power.
Unless god loaded up the 19th century, pressed f12 and then typed on money which he rained upon China in great quantities that baby wasnt going anywhere. Ever.

 

[unmerged(18885)]

I happen to like how varied the nations can be. In my current Belgium game China has suffered with revolts and hasnt done anything. In my previous game it was nearly completely conquered by The Europeans and Japan. Then in my really short game before that its was just as you describe it, an industrial power house. I like it this way.

My long term goal for Victoria is to play a fairly minor nation and get a larger population than China

 

[Alexander Seil]

This "variation" tends to kill off the historical spirit. Especially when the Chinese march all over India - without them being an industrial powerhouse, either.

 

[The Yogi]

Originally posted by Myros
Jeez, do you want things to go EXACTLY as history tells us every game? Play some more GCs ... I have seen hugely different results in every game so far. Havent seen what you describe in any so far, though have with countries other than China. Its part of what gives Vicky replayability ..and you want it "fixed"?


Myros

What I want in every game is not historical correctness bu PLAUSIBILITY.

The CSA wins the civil war? Fine, could have happened easily enough.

France overtakes the British in the colonial race? Yes, that could have happened too.

But I don't EVER wan't to see the victorius Legions of Zanzibar march conquering across the globe, and industrial leadership for China in the 19th century ranks up with that in implausibility. Seeing it happen in my first real GC must indicate that it is not that much of a freak occurence.

 

[unmerged(12544)]

Originally posted by The Yogi
.... and industrial leadership for China in the 19th century ranks up with that in implausibility. Seeing it happen in my first real GC must indicate that it is not that much of a freak occurence.

Your are looking to much on the number of factories, what does say nothing about the real industrial power. You won't get rich by producing wine, liquor or fertilizer. I have played as China and my conlusion is, that they have no chance to industrialize in a senseful way. In 1866 I had tech level 2, 2, 2, 0, 2. And was light years way from building steel factories, or dream about building artillery factories. So I see no problem there, because China is weak, as it should be.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Originally posted by The Yogi
What I want in every game is not historical correctness bu PLAUSIBILITY.

The CSA wins the civil war? Fine, could have happened easily enough.

France overtakes the British in the colonial race? Yes, that could have happened too.

But I don't EVER wan't to see the victorius Legions of Zanzibar march conquering across the globe, and industrial leadership for China in the 19th century ranks up with that in implausibility. Seeing it happen in my first real GC must indicate that it is not that much of a freak occurence.

i m a bit surprised by your comparisons. even if China was as backwards as Zanzibar in 1836, it would be something like a quater of a million times more likely to conquer the world than Zanzibar. So i can't see how you can make that comparison. In terms of economic production China was still the strongest region-wise, ie, vis-a-vis the West AS A WHOLE, in the early 1800s, generating the largest share of manufacturing output in the world. But the first industrial revolution brought the West way ahead of the world towards the END OF the 19th century.

if by your standard CSA winning the Civil War is plausible, then I can't see how China beating UK in some minor war is by your standard implausible. I'll use the example of the first opium war.

The British were beaten off in its initial assaults in Southern China in the first opium war. if China sunk some more British ships there, and then the bureaucrats in the other provinces in Eastern China had been more co-operative in preparing to fight and repel subsequent assaults when the British moved towards them, and then the Emperor wasn't such a weakling so he actually orders the cannons in the coastal fortresses to fire at British ships when they move towards the capital, then Britain may well find China too hard to defeat and opt to accept some nominal treaty so that they can continue trading with China. Trade was what Britain wanted the most. it couldn't afford to lose out against other european countries in its trade with China. All those mistakes i mentioned were just human errors and by your standard should be plausible to be rectified. i think it is ok for China to be gaining ground as long as it doesnt happen in most games.

what i said about the comparative power of China to the West is confined to the first few decades of the game. If you started the game in a later scenario, then China winning would be closer to implausible. But the situation you were describing does not even seem to be any major expansion. Plus you also have to consider the fact that you are playing Germany and the AI is programed to counter the player, so it causes Russia to divert from the Far East.

 

[The Yogi]

First of all, I compared the likelihood of Zanzibar conquering the world to that of China being an industrial leader, not China conquering the world. Both should be equally impossible. Obviously, there aren't enough Zanzibarians to even rule the world, much less conquer it so obviously China had a big lead in the world conquering department. But again, that was not what my comparison was about.

Second, I have no problem with China beating back a British attack, since even the Zulu's managed to give the British a bloody nose, and much later at that. And as you say, there's the precedent of the first Opium war. Just so you don't think I'm driven by anti-sinoism, I consider those wars as about the lowest the west ever fell morally during the entire colonial era - imagine fighting two wars for the right to push dope!

But this was not a minor defensive war - China actually conquered most of the colony of Burma. If Britain had been at war somewhere else, I might understand it, but this was strictly Britain against China - and Britain got clobbered, bad, close to their power base in India. Prepostrous!

And it happened again - Russia is getting licked by the Chinese with regularity.

Frankly, as far as I know the Chinese Army of around 1800 AD wouldn't have presented much of a challenge to the Legions of Imperial Rome (quality-wise), not to speak of a great European power like Russia. Certainly, some improvement must have taken place in the following 50 years, but still.

 

[The Yogi]

Originally posted by Panther II
Your are looking to much on the number of factories, what does say nothing about the real industrial power. You won't get rich by producing wine, liquor or fertilizer. I have played as China and my conlusion is, that they have no chance to industrialize in a senseful way. In 1866 I had tech level 2, 2, 2, 0, 2. And was light years way from building steel factories, or dream about building artillery factories. So I see no problem there, because China is weak, as it should be.

This on the other hand could be a very valid reason why China SEEMS to be industrial leader of the world. Maybe its just that they have fertilizer-, wine- and liqour factories piled three deep all over the country. I assumed the Industry ranking was in some sense qualitative - most developed railroad, biggest steel production etc, but if its a straight numberical comparison, then that might be OK. Doesn't explain why the Chinese are so successful in wars against the Europeans though.

 

[unmerged(12544)]

Originally posted by The Yogi
This on the other hand could be a very valid reason why China SEEMS to be industrial leader of the world. Maybe its just that they have fertilizer-, wine- and liqour factories piled three deep all over the country. I assumed the Industry ranking was in some sense qualitative - most developed railroad, biggest steel production etc, but if its a straight numberical comparison, then that might be OK.

You should look at the export/import numbers and the daily trade surplus. This gives a better information about the economic power of a country. In 1866 China should have +2200 per day with no factories and just resource exports.

Originally posted by The Yogi
Doesn't explain why the Chinese are so successful in wars against the Europeans though.

This is probably an AI problem. I have seen, that the Russia AI is able to cope with a war against one great power, except for Austria, but against several at once it has no chance. The British AI is simply too stupid, I have only seen them attack via land from India and there China clearly has the better cards. The ENG AI is too offensive. Against a defensive British force in India, China certainly has no chance with its inferior troops. So I see the problem at Russia and England.

 

[The Yogi]

OK, Panther, you've got me convinced and I withdraw my complaint then. Apparently, China is as it should be.

BUT I think that the Industrial Power ranking should be revamped to take the qualitative level of industry into account. I just LOOKS wrong with China in the lead (even if its just a Chimera).

 

[unmerged(10128)]

i agree the qualitative aspect should be taken into account in industrial power rankings. but in the game China is not in the top ranks in 1836 even though as i said China out-produced the West as a whole in manufacturing in the early 1800s. so i'd say the game probably have already taken into account the qualitative level of industry. but maybe i m wrong.

i also agree it is an AI problem. If possible China probably should be more pacifist. I don't think it is implausible for China to take some relatively small place like Burma, which is just like adding one extra province out of its existing 30 provinces, since with a regular army of about a million Britain may well fail to defend against despite its technological advantage. instead the key point is that China would not have done it as its state religion is pacifist and ruling elite conservative, being too expansionist would have political consequences. The precedent of the Opium War which i already mentioned is a clear example of this lack of commitment to fight. So Chinese AI should be more pacifist, and Russian and British AI should also be improved somewhat, as others have already said.

 

[unmerged(20604)]

I believe that china is to "strong" og getting to many points...

In every game i have played they have defeated Russia!

And maybe they don't have the largest export, but still they are ranked as a Great power... Very irritating... they should get lesser points for there industrialization...

I think that industrial points should be calculated on how much you exported, or something like that. Just because x country have long railroads, doesn't mean they produce a lot!

 

[Derek Pullem]

Industrial rating for Great Power ranking changed to reduce impact of RGO's in 1.02

 

[Duuk]

Originally posted by Derek Pullem
Industrial rating for Great Power ranking changed to reduce impact of RGO's in 1.02

Woo. And there we go. Now if we can get the manpower issues resolved and have great disparity between land tech battles (ie: 10000 Brits should be able to slaughter several hundred thousand Chinese spear-wielders), China will become what it should be in the period: A good place to control large tracts of. After all, China had no real say in the "sphere of influence" debates that carved it up.

Now... what would be NICE is if it was possible in VIC to take the next step and carve china into several smaller "nations" that are actually small satellite states. IE: "French Zone China", "British China", etc etc.