China: Self-Strengthening

[Agenor]

Does anyone know the chain of events that leads to the self-strengthening movement? I think you have to lose the Opium War, and Britain has to occupy a number of provinces by a certain date - but can't remember the date or number of provinces. That thentriggers the Arrow War, which I think you also have to lose.

The benefit is that one gets several techs, but loses massive prestige through losing these wars. Is this a good way to civilize China? I'm playing 1.04, not Revolutions. The advice in the Vicky-Wiki is pretty dated, since it neglects the fact that you need Water-Wheel Power before you can trade for Publishing Industry and get MPs. Hence no fast way to industrialize, as far as I can see.

 

[Orm]

Put your buy order on MPs to 1000, put your defense and army spending to full, build brigaded cavalry divisions and wait for your prestige to rise and MPs to become available, then you're set. No need to wait for events. No need to lose wars.

 

[Agenor]

It isn't so easy in 1.04, which revised tariff income downwards dramatically, and made it necessary to research water wheel power before being able to trade for useful techs. It was much easier in 1.03, and I think civilizing is also easier in Revolutions.

Firstly, you can only build irregulars. Basically, China is so poor it can't even afford a lot of those, certainly not as many as it needs. It certainly can't afford a reasonable regular army, let alone cavalry, until it civilizes (it could with 1.03). So even doing a tech trade with Russia to get flintlock rifles isn't going to help you out because, if you build a regular army big enough to take on the British it will make you bankrupt, which will lose you just as much prestige as the treaties of humiliation.

I'm a fairly experienced Vicky player but I gave up my first game as China with 1.04. The British poured so many dozens of divisions into China across every border that I was just overwhelmed. And it would have taken almost fifty years to get the needed water wheel tech, given the miserable amount of income I was able to put into education.

 

[unmerged(16685)]

It isn't so easy in 1.04, which revised tariff income downwards dramatically, and made it necessary to research water wheel power before being able to trade for useful techs. It was much easier in 1.03, and I think civilizing is also easier in Revolutions.

Firstly, you can only build irregulars. Basically, China is so poor it can't even afford a lot of those, certainly not as many as it needs. It certainly can't afford a reasonable regular army, let alone cavalry, until it civilizes (it could with 1.03). So even doing a tech trade with Russia to get flintlock rifles isn't going to help you out because, if you build a regular army big enough to take on the British it will make you bankrupt, which will lose you just as much prestige as the treaties of humiliation.

I'm a fairly experienced Vicky player but I gave up my first game as China with 1.04. The British poured so many dozens of divisions into China across every border that I was just overwhelmed. And it would have taken almost fifty years to get the needed water wheel tech, given the miserable amount of income I was able to put into education.

How do u do it in revolutions then?

 

[Agenor]

I've just made a new discovery. Trading for Private Banks, No Standard and Freedom of Trade massively increases tariff income - from about £120 per day with minimal poor and middle taxes to £325. This is very odd. According to the tech descriptions tariff income should only increase by around 15%, not by 270%. Does anyone know what is going on here?

Just trading for two techs, no standard and freedom of trade, increases tariff income to £260. Tax income rises as the tech description suggests.

So, time to start again, this time trading tech with the Russians as soon as possible.

 

[Agenor]

How do u do it in revolutions then?

I don't know, I don't have Revolutions but I read that the conditions had been changed to make it easier to become a civ - eg, you get more research points, don't need as many military and prestige points etc.

 

[Orm]

It isn't so easy in 1.04, which revised tariff income downwards dramatically, and made it necessary to research water wheel power before being able to trade for useful techs. It was much easier in 1.03, and I think civilizing is also easier in Revolutions.

Firstly, you can only build irregulars. Basically, China is so poor it can't even afford a lot of those, certainly not as many as it needs. It certainly can't afford a reasonable regular army, let alone cavalry, until it civilizes (it could with 1.03). So even doing a tech trade with Russia to get flintlock rifles isn't going to help you out because, if you build a regular army big enough to take on the British it will make you bankrupt, which will lose you just as much prestige as the treaties of humiliation.

I'm a fairly experienced Vicky player but I gave up my first game as China with 1.04. The British poured so many dozens of divisions into China across every border that I was just overwhelmed. And it would have taken almost fifty years to get the needed water wheel tech, given the miserable amount of income I was able to put into education.

I had no idea China was in such a poor state prior to Revolutions. I obviously don't know what I'm talking about. o

 

[Agenor]

I had no idea China was in such a poor state prior to Revolutions.

It isn't if you trade for certain commerce and industrial techs -see my post #5 above. Once you have these techs you can afford a decent army. Why these techs should have such a dramatic effect on revenue is a mystery to me.