China keeps falling before Japan declares war on the US and Britain?

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

In my games starting the 1939 timeline, China keeps falling before Japan declares war on the West. One time, it was such a problem that I (Britain) had to declare war on Japan in 1940 because Japan was getting really close to Chongqing and if it wasn't for my troops, China would have fell. As the US, the US doesn't even join the war until 1941 so it's even harder to do anything about it. How can China, a nation that held out against Japan for 8 years in real life fall so easily in this game?

 

[Dlin369]

How aggressively are you lend-leasing China?

Balancing the Sino-japanese war has been difficult in HOI4 and the game more or less ends up each update with a fragile equilibrium where China needs to be weak enough to be pushed away from the coast but strong enough to hold out from there. This is challenging because losing industrial capacity from losing the coast should cause a downward spiral, but Japan needs something to hold them back from snowballing into China. Currently, China gets a lot of buffs when Japan initially invades (being able to access their national ideas giving them defensive bonuses faster than Japan gets their attack bonuses), but AI China depends a lot on foreign support (like historically) to keep Japan at bay.

Unfortunately, HOI4 struggles to model the logistical challenges that kept Japan from advancing inland, and while the resistance system in Husky was able to improve upon the challenges Japan had in forming a collaborationist government and keeping insurgents out, it's not enough to completely slow down the Japanese. Furthermore, there is the issue of overbuffing China, which can cause Japan to be thrown into the sea by the Ai fairly early in some circumstances.

If you're starting in the 1939 start you're basically out of luck - the devs generally regret adding that start-date and it gets a lot less attention by the devs and the playerbase than 1936. As Britain you can't do much besides lendlease China (if you have the dlc, otherwise you can only really send volunteers until WW2) starts. I personally believe the oil embargo needs to be added into the game as an event for the US and UK to set up the Pacific theater.

 

[Admiral Bloonbeard]

How aggressively are you lend-leasing China?

Balancing the Sino-japanese war has been difficult in HOI4 and the game more or less ends up each update with a fragile equilibrium where China needs to be weak enough to be pushed away from the coast but strong enough to hold out from there. This is challenging because losing industrial capacity from losing the coast should cause a downward spiral, but Japan needs something to hold them back from snowballing into China. Currently, China gets a lot of buffs when Japan initially invades (being able to access their national ideas giving them defensive bonuses faster than Japan gets their attack bonuses), but AI China depends a lot on foreign support (like historically) to keep Japan at bay.

Unfortunately, HOI4 struggles to model the logistical challenges that kept Japan from advancing inland, and while the resistance system in Husky was able to improve upon the challenges Japan had in forming a collaborationist government and keeping insurgents out, it's not enough to completely slow down the Japanese. Furthermore, there is the issue of overbuffing China, which can cause Japan to be thrown into the sea by the Ai fairly early in some circumstances.

If you're starting in the 1939 start you're basically out of luck - the devs generally regret adding that start-date and it gets a lot less attention by the devs and the playerbase than 1936. As Britain you can't do much besides lendlease China (if you have the dlc, otherwise you can only really send volunteers until WW2) starts. I personally believe the oil embargo needs to be added into the game as an event for the US and UK to set up the Pacific theater.

Well in that case, than it's my fault for not doing lend lease then. Also, "the devs generally regret adding that start-date and it gets a lot less attention by the devs", do you have the source for that?

 

[Dlin369]

Another interesting data point is when people start. Seems only 4% of games are started on 1939 bookmark. This is something we have noticed across games in the company. People prefer the earliest start point with a large margin. This means that with its a pretty bad idea for us to focus on new start points over improving the popular option and that it probably would have been a good idea to skip the 1939 start for HOI4. I feel that its likely in hindsight that a '41 start could have been more popular.

As a side note we broke both our daily active players count and monthly active record during the DoD release and it seems to be going strong, so thanks everyone for enjoying the game

This was from a DoD dev diary from 2017, but the general idea has remained the same for a while - few people play in the 1939 scenario and consequently it gets less attention. CK2 had a similar issue, which is why 769 didn't come back for CK3.

Yeah, it doesnt make sense to dedicate resources to more start points. In hindsight 1939 was a mistake to leave in also because only 4% play it. Personally I thought the later startpoints could be a lot of fun in HOI3, but they are not popular enough to focus devs on.

I heard this mod was pretty good if you want a challenge in later start dates: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=962742350

This another quote for when people asked for more start dates

I think I agree with podcat- HOI4 is a lot about the buildup to WW2 and starting the scenario in 1939 throws things out of balance.

 

[him_15]

Strange, in most of my games Japan always failed to conquer China.

 

[Spelaren]

The allies need to help China through lendlease and attachés. Remember to keep a path through Burma for troop movement between em if you get military access.

 

[Bunnytob]

It's also 1939. China has nowhere near enough divisions in 1939.

 

[Happy Trigger]

In my games starting the 1939 timeline, China keeps falling before Japan declares war on the West. One time, it was such a problem that I (Britain) had to declare war on Japan in 1940 because Japan was getting really close to Chongqing and if it wasn't for my troops, China would have fell. As the US, the US doesn't even join the war until 1941 so it's even harder to do anything about it. How can China, a nation that held out against Japan for 8 years in real life fall so easily in this game?

That's is very simple. It's for 2 reasons. First, because UK and US are not supporting China. They need to support China with extensive war material, otherwise, China is not able to survive until they enter the war. Second, because, like the Axis buy Oil from the Middle East, which at the time was impossible, the japanase don't suffer any kind of embargo like they suffer at the time. A japanese player can fight the Allies without pushing USA to war, unless they atack the Phillipines, or justify manually. Japan need to suffer a embargo to gain a 'Casus Belli' against USA, which (if i am correct) don't exist in the game.

Watch from 3:28: (Detailed explanation of Japanese view)

 

[Louella]

Would the Spanish Civil War's "unplanned offensive" thing be something that could work when adapted to the Japan/China conflict, so as to slow down the ability of Japan to push too far inland, and allowing China to survive a bit easier ?

 

[Meglok]

1939, trash set up that hasn't really been kept up to date. I doubt you will see alternative starts in HOI5.

Either way, ai China is designed to be a kill for ai Japan, unless a player helps China or the rng sucks for Japan. Same concept as ai France and Poland for Germany. They need to die so Germany has a chance vs Soviets, US, and Commonwealth. If Japan is tied up in China it has no prayer against the Allies. Remember, this is not a historical documentary. Game balance trumps history.

 

[Happy Trigger]

Remember, this is not a historical documentary. Game balance trumps history.

Don't joke! Some buffs the Allies get, especially UK and US are OP, making the late game impossible against them.

 

[Dalnar]

Hmm odd, for me (unmodded game) it's pretty the opposite. Japan always crumbles in China. It's depressing when I play Axis for obvious reasons, but it also makes it very boring as UK/USA.