China in CK - an open answer and thought on the potential advantages and issues

[SaphireSeas]

If they add China, I hope they also add Japan.

If they add China, they will get round to Japan eventually, if it is not released parallel to China.

This map is great and would most likely work very well for my map mod with generally more provinces...

I doubt they will be adding more provinces in Europe. They have already called anyone of Indian culture who is a duke a 'Raja' or in English 'King' and any King a 'Maharaja' or 'Great King'.
I expect they will use similar methods in a prospective China DLC.
Personally, I think we would need another tier of Empire for China, India and Rome. But I am afraid to ask for this for fear they will take the oportunity to create insane de-jure uber Empires which never Existed historically.

 

[sreckom92]

I didn't say anything about the territories around it. I was just trying to point out to you how much you had lost perspective of just how big the numbers you were throwing out were. 2K for China and 3K-5K for everything.

And as Thure points out, there is plenty of areas on the current map that were fractured as hell, which has been abstracted away, so i don't buy that excuse at all.

I agree that those numbers are too big.
But also, I just can't see the rest of Asia without 1000 new provinces at the bare minimum.
That is still quite a big addition. Although I would love to see China in CK2, I would prefer if they don't risk it.
Unless they are 100% sure the game can be optimized enough.......

 

[A-D.]

Do you know 'how utterly fragmented china the HRE (or even France and Italy) was during alot of its history at least compared to today'? And how many provinces has the HRE ingame? Of course it needs to be abstracted! Why should East Asia be more detailed than everything else? It should be as much detailed as everything else. Not more.

And 68 provinces would be enough for Japan if you want it detailed... It don't need to be as detailed as in Sengoku.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_provinces_of_ancient_Japan

I didn't say anything about the territories around it. I was just trying to point out to you how much you had lost perspective of just how big the numbers you were throwing out were. 2K for China and 3K-5K for everything.

And as Thure points out, there is plenty of areas on the current map that were fractured as hell, which has been abstracted away, so i don't buy that excuse at all.

Im just quoting both since i can answer both of them at once. To add everything else, i.e. all of the asian continent and water and so forth, we're looking at at least, at the most abstracted and reduced 1000 provinces, out of those maybe 1/5th or so would be water, leaving around 800 or so provinces which need history for all characters and so on. So imagine 800 or so provinces, with history stretching back to 1AD (because thats how far the game can go back) and features and events for everything related to china, new religions and so forth. The workload alone would be immense, but doable, but the engine? I dont think it can handle it, certainly not now and im very sceptical about the claim that it somehow could handle it after the 2.4 patch without going right back to where we are now. Once all that stuff is added, all that optimization went out the window because its now taken up by all the new stuff so we'd be right back where we are now, if not even worse off potentially.

But do you want it abstracted and just barely representable? Why? "Because then its in the game of course". What for? What is the point of adding a subpar region with fluff that barely counts as feature complete just so you can go "Yay we got Quasi-China in the Game now! Lets add some more shit because we will keep asking for more anyways"? Because thats whats going to happen, it doesnt matter whether you will do it, or someone else will, eventually people will ask for even more. See Africa, maybe we should add that too next because its also part of the "Old World", sure south africa has barely any influence on much of Europe, but China didnt really either so again, impasse in the argument. Why should we accept a barely functional DLC just because you want to point to it and say "There it is!"? Go look at a damn map then, it would have about the same effect.

The argument circles always back around to what a few ask for, never considering anything else other than having their pet-desires added to the game. I wouldnt care if China was added unless it actually offers a unique and fresh experience and honestly, i dont see that happening. So for the sake of fairness, i will be Devil's Advocate and just tell you about all the things that it will impact. Like performance, because the Engine will eventually hit the ceiling and cant get any further than that, no amount of "but but optimization" will change that. And adding everything else that hasnt been added yet isnt going to happen under the current engine, so they'd have to essentially do an engine swap and THAT is a fuckton of work.

You know, i will make you a deal. Once 2.4 hits and the performance gets better, lets see about getting Umbra Spherea another shot with that patch, lets see how well it runs. If it runs well, we can talk about whether it would be feasable to do an entire DLC on all that stuff. But im not going to hold my breath and neither should you, lack of air is bad.

 

[DC123456789]

The game doesn't need characters and history going back to 1 AD. In fact, the vast majority of titles only have title history for playable dates and sometimes a little further back/in between (and sometimes not even that).

 

[Wudadi]

In fact, There are many chinese game company make Chinese Historical Strategy Game (Unfortunately these games just have chinese version)

Waiting CK series has China expansion is a long time.............................................

There are some game companies also make China in Historical Strategy Game like Iceberg interactive game.

Become Supreme Ruler of Ancient China in Oriental Empires (PC) in this summer on steam.

Spoiler: pictures

http://www.iceberg-games.com/index.php?dispatch=news.view&news_id=125

Good News : RoTK 13 (12/10/2015)----Same as RoTK 7, 8, 10 ! RoTK 13 is RPG !!!

Spoiler: Pictures

Spoiler: Video

http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/sangokushi13/

 

[HMatsunaga54]

The problem with China is that it won't work good with CK2's mechanics. With Chinese states you usually didn't have hereditary positions with land, nor could you have anything like super dukes. Depending on how CK2 deals with court intrigue, which could take some ques from regencies and muslim wives to deal with concubines, and the possibility of political factions. You would also have design duchies which couldn't be that bad, but what would be good for kingdoms? Also whats to stop a united China from rampaging across the map ala EU3 Ming?

 

[Thure]

The game doesn't need characters and history going back to 1 AD. In fact, the vast majority of titles only have title history for playable dates and sometimes a little further back/in between (and sometimes not even that).

Let him... A-D. like to exaggerate I think... He can't even work with numbers... Allways the same 'At least 1000 provinces for China alone!'. That would be nearly as many land provinces as we have now... That would never happen. He just exaggerate to make China look bad. I can't explain it otherwise... It's make no sense to give China more details than everything else on the map. It would even unblanace the game in a great way if China is more detailed than the rest of the map (and even geographically China is in no way as big as Europe+North Africa+Central Asia+India+ the Orient...). And even if China is geographically a large area... Many of the areas are deserts and steppes too! Barely populated places which don't need as much provinces as the chinese mainland.

The problem with China is that it won't work good with CK2's mechanics. With Chinese states you usually didn't have hereditary positions with land, nor could you have anything like super dukes. Depending on how CK2 deals with court intrigue, which could take some ques from regencies and muslim wives to deal with concubines, and the possibility of political factions. You would also have design duchies which couldn't be that bad, but what would be good for kingdoms? Also whats to stop a united China from rampaging across the map ala EU3 Ming?

Exactly such mechanics would be part of the DLC/patch... Empire nerving is already needed! And better imperial mechanics? I look at you Byzantine Empire!

 

[vyshan]

So how do you suppose a hypothetical china dlc would handle the religions of china?

 

[GeneralTank]

The problem with China is that it won't work good with CK2's mechanics. With Chinese states you usually didn't have hereditary positions with land, nor could you have anything like super dukes. Depending on how CK2 deals with court intrigue, which could take some ques from regencies and muslim wives to deal with concubines, and the possibility of political factions. You would also have design duchies which couldn't be that bad, but what would be good for kingdoms? Also whats to stop a united China from rampaging across the map ala EU3 Ming?

For the government china should use a new type of government bureaucratic state that can be applied to other states including Byzantines , Islamic state and even Charlemagne's empire. This would have heavy focus on govern-ships with a family place type holding in the capital city for non-imperial family's. So your not trying to grab land but to win influence in the court say hello to Byzantine politics.

So how do you suppose a hypothetical china dlc would handle the religions of china?

For the Far east China-Korea-Japan I would have the three main faiths be under the same faith to represent how interconnected they are. The three are Confucianism , Buddhism and Taoism (Shinto for Japan but serves same function). So it works like India but you have access to all three faiths at once. I don't have a overall name for the China-Korean one but Shinto-Buddhism would be for the Japanese. Southeast Asia I know much less about but it appears to be an extension of India in terms of faith with some native faith early on before many were Indianized due to trade.

 

[loup99]

A few thoughts to add to the discussion:

• The CK2 team (both developers and qc) is much bigger than it was in the past. They can have the same number of people working on depth that was on the team a year ago, while having the additional team members working on breadth. They will not be pulling from one area to work on another.
• The addition of the entire "Old World" Eurasian landmass + relevant Africa could be added in phases. Eastern Steppe/Western China can be added in one expansion, Eastern China + all outliers can be added in a second expansion. My hope is that Steppes + Tibet + missing parts of West Siberia will be one dlc with an increase in steppe tribe mechanics (gov. + soc)
• Some people seem to be under the wrong impression that during this time period the (petty) kings of Western Europe's fringes (ie Wessex, England) were ignorant of the "Far East" and that there were no interactions and influences from the Far East.
• Just as the "Mongel" and associated (ie Seljuk) events were changed and modified once India was added so they will be modified and changed once more. I look forward to more dynamic and less railroaded "invasions" once the map were expanded.

@loup99 - very nice op. I hope your desired discussion occurs. This forum can use more of these types of threads.

These were some good thoughts to add, and yes, as the team is larger they can invest more ressources in development of big projects like this. Although, dividing the expansion might be a bit hard, considering the work that would have to go into it, it is probably a viable solution. Considering the invasions, someone said they might not happen or happen earlier than in our history, and actually, that is one of the reasons why the complete Euroasia is suggested, or at least why I'm interested in it, to have less railroaded invasions, as you bring forward here. And yes, I think that a good discussion started.

We're arguing about adding territorially China.
Now, I'd like to argue about a patch/DLC that would only add a pack of events and mechanisms related to China, for the realms that were in relation with China.
Because people wanting China never tels why adding chinese territory would obviously be so much better than events + mechanics for realms influenced by China
because, for me, that would also be a real China DLC (I don't think there are much events related to China currently, are they ?)

Well, two things. First of all by adding the landmass and new characters as well as provinces the events can be less railroaded and more realistic. Secondly, as Thure said, we can actually play as these realms, that are highly interesting. Also, do keep in mind that would remove abstract borders.

 

[theKing1988]

Im just quoting both since i can answer both of them at once. To add everything else, i.e. all of the asian continent and water and so forth, we're looking at at least, at the most abstracted and reduced 1000 provinces, out of those maybe 1/5th or so would be water, leaving around 800 or so provinces which need history for all characters and so on. So imagine 800 or so provinces, with history stretching back to 1AD (because thats how far the game can go back) and features and events for everything related to china, new religions and so forth. The workload alone would be immense, but doable, but the engine? I dont think it can handle it, certainly not now and im very sceptical about the claim that it somehow could handle it after the 2.4 patch without going right back to where we are now. Once all that stuff is added, all that optimization went out the window because its now taken up by all the new stuff so we'd be right back where we are now, if not even worse off potentially.

But do you want it abstracted and just barely representable? Why? "Because then its in the game of course". What for? What is the point of adding a subpar region with fluff that barely counts as feature complete just so you can go "Yay we got Quasi-China in the Game now! Lets add some more shit because we will keep asking for more anyways"? Because thats whats going to happen, it doesnt matter whether you will do it, or someone else will, eventually people will ask for even more. See Africa, maybe we should add that too next because its also part of the "Old World", sure south africa has barely any influence on much of Europe, but China didnt really either so again, impasse in the argument. Why should we accept a barely functional DLC just because you want to point to it and say "There it is!"? Go look at a damn map then, it would have about the same effect.

The argument circles always back around to what a few ask for, never considering anything else other than having their pet-desires added to the game. I wouldnt care if China was added unless it actually offers a unique and fresh experience and honestly, i dont see that happening. So for the sake of fairness, i will be Devil's Advocate and just tell you about all the things that it will impact. Like performance, because the Engine will eventually hit the ceiling and cant get any further than that, no amount of "but but optimization" will change that. And adding everything else that hasnt been added yet isnt going to happen under the current engine, so they'd have to essentially do an engine swap and THAT is a fuckton of work.

You know, i will make you a deal. Once 2.4 hits and the performance gets better, lets see about getting Umbra Spherea another shot with that patch, lets see how well it runs. If it runs well, we can talk about whether it would be feasable to do an entire DLC on all that stuff. But im not going to hold my breath and neither should you, lack of air is bad.

You might not agree, but the "why would you want a Quasi-China?" argument could be made for huge parts of the map we have right now. Why would you want a Quasi Modernesque France, or a barely recognizable Quasi-ERE, or a barely recognizable Middle East or that mess that they pass of as Eastern Europe. So i still don't buy that as a reason for not wanting China. There are so many known rulers, regional nobles and county sub-divisions that have been abstracted away that it almost beggars belief. I'm a map modder myself, so i would know (part of the SWMH team)

 

[A-D.]

Let him... A-D. like to exaggerate I think... He can't even work with numbers... Allways the same 'At least 1000 provinces for China alone!'. That would be nearly as many land provinces as we have now... That would never happen. He just exaggerate to make China look bad. I can't explain it otherwise... It's make no sense to give China more details than everything else on the map. It would even unblanace the game in a great way if China is more detailed than the rest of the map (and even geographically China is in no way as big as Europe+North Africa+Central Asia+India+ the Orient...). And even if China is geographically a large area... Many of the areas are deserts and steppes too! Barely populated places which don't need as much provinces as the chinese mainland.

When you lose the argument and have nothing else to add, just go for the ad hominem against people who argue against you. Yeah that surely helps your case. Im sorry you try to ignore the reality of the situation, but reality doesnt work that way and no matter how you stomp your foot and whine about it, that wont change. "Oh it needs 1000 provinces"..yeah it will. How do you propose China and the rest of your "desired Old World" be added? One Province per "kingdom"? per "empire"? Even if abstracted to the extreme you will nearly double everything in the game, regardless of how broad strokes you make it.

But its my fault that i make you look bad because you havent thought about it more than "well i just want it". Im not making a fictional addition which isnt even confirmed yet look bad, there is a difference here. But sure, keep pretending that adding all that wont require alot of provinces, keep pretending that it wont affect performance negatively again. Why dont you just wait for 2.4 and then try Umbra Spherea? Hmm? Could it be that you fear being actually proven wrong? Nah that cant be it, you would never sink so low as to..oh wait, you already did.

You might not agree, but the "why would you want a Quasi-China?" argument could be made for huge parts of the map we have right now. Why would you want a Quasi Modernesque France, or a barely recognizable Quasi-ERE, or a barely recognizable Middle East or that mess that they pass of as Eastern Europe. So i still don't buy that as a reason for not wanting China. There are so many known rulers, regional nobles and county sub-divisions that have been abstracted away that it almost beggars belief. I'm a map modder myself, so i would know (part of the SWMH team)

Thats the point though, why should we need to add yet another landmass to the game when what we have is already only barely historical in any sense of the word. We got Pagans and such but they are barebones as it is, why dont we get some more stuff there first? Pagans are already there, dont need to be added, just add more to them. Why not fix everything else in the game first before adding yet another country or whatever to the mix so we can all stare and wonder just why they bothered. And stop misconstructing my argument, i dont care if China exists in the game or not. I care whether it fucks up everything else and i am opposed to the people who are whining and begging for it to be added because their "wish" will also negatively influence MY games, because i cant just avoid the patch. Can the game handle China at current? No. Can it handle it once 2.4 comes out? Well its not out yet, so why dont we wait and see?

But i rather doubt that is the case, all it will do is 2.4 increases performance, so now all the china-lovers are free to bitch until Paradox makes it and then performance goes right back down to where we are now. Yeah that sure improved anything. But you know whats really funny? Whenever these "i want this thing in the next DLC" threads come up, the biggest proponents can never produce any kind of convincing argument as to why their pet-desire should be added. It was the same with all the Naval-DLC threads, its the same now.

 

[Thure]

When you lose the argument and have nothing else to add, just go for the ad hominem against people who argue against you. Yeah that surely helps your case. Im sorry you try to ignore the reality of the situation, but reality doesnt work that way and no matter how you stomp your foot and whine about it, that wont change. "Oh it needs 1000 provinces"..yeah it will. How do you propose China and the rest of your "desired Old World" be added? One Province per "kingdom"? per "empire"? Even if abstracted to the extreme you will nearly double everything in the game, regardless of how broad strokes you make it.

But its my fault that i make you look bad because you havent thought about it more than "well i just want it". Im not making a fictional addition which isnt even confirmed yet look bad, there is a difference here. But sure, keep pretending that adding all that wont require alot of provinces, keep pretending that it wont affect performance negatively again. Why dont you just wait for 2.4 and then try Umbra Spherea? Hmm? Could it be that you fear being actually proven wrong? Nah that cant be it, you would never sink so low as to..oh wait, you already did.



Thats the point though, why should we need to add yet another landmass to the game when what we have is already only barely historical in any sense of the word. We got Pagans and such but they are barebones as it is, why dont we get some more stuff there first? Pagans are already there, dont need to be added, just add more to them. Why not fix everything else in the game first before adding yet another country or whatever to the mix so we can all stare and wonder just why they bothered. And stop misconstructing my argument, i dont care if China exists in the game or not. I care whether it fucks up everything else and i am opposed to the people who are whining and begging for it to be added because their "wish" will also negatively influence MY games, because i cant just avoid the patch. Can the game handle China at current? No. Can it handle it once 2.4 comes out? Well its not out yet, so why dont we wait and see?

But i rather doubt that is the case, all it will do is 2.4 increases performance, so now all the china-lovers are free to bitch until Paradox makes it and then performance goes right back down to where we are now. Yeah that sure improved anything. But you know whats really funny? Whenever these "i want this thing in the next DLC" threads come up, the biggest proponents can never produce any kind of convincing argument as to why their pet-desire should be added. It was the same with all the Naval-DLC threads, its the same now.

You don't understand it, right? Chinese provinces should be around the same size as the provinces on the rest on the map. A large part of China is desert and steppes, so less and larger provinces there. The rest should be around the same size as the other parts of the map. You can't give china proportionally more provinces than the rest of the world has in CK. I'm a map modder I know how it works too add provinces. And too give China alone 1000 provinces would be the worst case scenario... Because this wouldn't be comparable to province sizes on other parts of the map. You would just add chinese provinces without take the other parts of the map into account.

1000 Chinese provinces - 300 Indian provinces would be highly unbalanced and ahistorical...

 

[A-D.]

You don't understand it, right? Chinese provinces should be around the same size as the provinces on the rest on the map. A large part of China is desert and steppes, so less and larger provinces there. The rest should be around the same size as the other parts of the map. You can't give china proportionally more provinces than the rest of the world has in CK. I'm a map modder I know how it works too add provinces. And too give China alone 1000 provinces would be the worst case scenario... Because this wouldn't be comparable to province sizes on other parts of the map. You would just add chinese provinces without take the other parts of the map into account.

1000 Chinese provinces - 300 Indian provinces would be highly unbalanced and ahistorical...

Oh i fully understand, but it seems you are entirely hung up on how many provinces china itself needs, however china alone wouldnt really be as big as today, so there is already part of the issue, it was heavily fragmented so you have to balance all the smaller chinese realms against each other, kind of how in india you have the 3 dejure empires which balance each other out despite the rather high number of provinces in India compared to most of the west, example the steppes being very few provinces relative to its actual size, same is true for alot of arabia comparatively, since they have quite a few larger provinces, in part because "well alot of it is desert there" hence the abstraction being doable easily. China as in geographically speaking and using the present day size as reference has ALOT of rather uninhabitable terrain primarily to is south-west and north-east, hence most of its population is centered in the eastern part of china and along the rivers and lower parts and not the mountainous areas.

That doesnt mean nobody lives there though, so you cant just make both of those areas into a giant wasteland either, you'd still have a few provinces going through it, granted perhaps a bit larger bit there you go. Now add to the fact that alot of the bigger populated areas, although less when accounting for the timeperiod were extremely fragmented, i.e. alot of smaller "realms" making up the whole thing. So China alone would be, at best, if stretched far enough, about 300-400 provinces all in all, probably more because again it has to be balanced against itself and its surrounding realms, you cant make one big china "empire" so to speak with 300 provinces either because they would steamroll Tibet (more provinces needed), Nepal (more provinces needed), Korea, Japan..they all need provinces. To add China you need around 1000 provinces at least BECAUSE you have to eventually add all that too, China itself may be smaller in number, but we arent talking purely China here, we are talking China and everything around it because otherwise China would be yet another India, relatively isolated with nothing at all to do.

So no, you dont understand what the argument is, or you are deliberately trying to confuse the issue. China itself is easily doable, but only China? No. That isnt where it ends, after China its Mongolia and Japan and Thailand and Vietnam and Korea and the rest of northern asia and southern asia. How do you think thats going to be made? Sure you could have few massive provinces because a few areas were sparsely populated, but again, to use your point for a second, thats hardly historical now is it?

 

[loup99]

So no, you dont understand what the argument is, or you are deliberately trying to confuse the issue. China itself is easily doable, but only China? No. That isnt where it ends, after China its Mongolia and Japan and Thailand and Vietnam and Korea and the rest of northern asia and southern asia. How do you think thats going to be made? Sure you could have few massive provinces because a few areas were sparsely populated, but again, to use your point for a second, thats hardly historical now is it?

But as I said in the OP, China implies the other places being added too, removing abstract limits. And the places you are listing, in the vanilla map, would never be more than the current map scope together, or even close to it.

 

[Finnway]

To be honest I would probably expect it as the first big DLC. I'd like to see CK3 vanilla development go towards reworking many of the core systems that aren't really working so well.

Yes --that many people are in denial they aren't working well, I might add.

Wait until CK3. When they can flesh out all the different cultures from the Atlantic to the China Sea in depth.

 

[A-D.]

But as I said in the OP, China implies the other places being added too, removing abstract limits. And the places you are listing, in the vanilla map, would never be more than the current map scope together, or even close to it.

Right, because Asia isnt the biggest continental landmass. Granted we already have a bit but you know what part of Asia so far is missing? East Asia, Southeast Asia, Northeast Asia and a large chunk of central Asia while we're at it. Lets consider that we dont have a big mediterranean sea in Asia, or that big North Sea and Atlantic. So we dont exactly have large bodies of water made up of nothing but empty provinces. Wasteland? There isnt all that much either unless you want to be entirely ahistorical about the whole thing. The only water we have would be around Japan and Korea, and thats arguing we arent extending the map until we hit the bering strait end of Russia. Or Not further south to include Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam and quite a few islands extra, but then we also extend Africa south so that has to be kinda filled in a bit too.

So no, its going to hit 1000 provinces quickly to add all that and probably exceed it because people will bitch about historical accuracy anyway. Look at Thure's argument "we can abstract all that, but if you add too much its ahistorical"..and abstraction is somehow historical. Its the perfect example of "having your cake and eating it too". So i honestly dont get your argument that somehow it could easily be added, which is what im arguing against, or that it wouldnt at least almost double the size and scope of the current game, if not outright exceeding it.

Seriously, what in gods name is actually your argument? Because so far i have seen only contradictions to everything and im arguing in circles about shit we talked about 4 pages ago.

 

[loup99]

Seriously, what in gods name is actually your argument? Because so far i have seen only contradictions to everything and im arguing in circles about shit we talked about 4 pages ago.

My argument is simple, while you are very contradictory, but lets not turn this into some back and forward ping-pong. I do not think that the region justifies the insane province numbers you want to allocate to it, and if it would do so, I think that it should not be added without proper optimization, which is what @Doomdark said, and I have faith in him. So basically, they wont do this unless it is justified performance-wise, and even if your huge numbers are the only solution to add the rest Euro-Asia, they would not do it unless the performance in the game justifies it.

 

[circlecrystal]

The problem with China is that it won't work good with CK2's mechanics. With Chinese states you usually didn't have hereditary positions with land, nor could you have anything like super dukes. Depending on how CK2 deals with court intrigue, which could take some ques from regencies and muslim wives to deal with concubines, and the possibility of political factions. You would also have design duchies which couldn't be that bad, but what would be good for kingdoms? Also whats to stop a united China from rampaging across the map ala EU3 Ming?

The interesting thing is, despite actually I quite agree on what you said, that when I wrote basically the same idea to yours people vote DISAGREE with the exact opposite reasons.
And even more ironically, when I wrote the opposite side opinion, again people vote DISAGREE with exact the reason of what you said.

What I found out is, whether people vote agrees or disagrees doesn`t really matter anymore.
It`s because people are stupid.
And it`s because people are boring.
And most of all, some idiots only knew and know and will keep knowing that all they can do is to press the 'Disagree' button.

With all that said, I quite envy you for getting 3 smart enough souls knowing how to vote AGREE.

Again, Agree or Disagree doesn`t matter. Cuz people are either unreasonable, insane, or just stupid. Of course some people are smart, but not many.

P.S.
I`m thinking about making an automatic DISAGREE bot to vote back all those who vote DISAGREE too often.

 

[A-D.]

My argument is simple, while you are very contradictory, but lets not turn this into some back and forward ping-pong. I do not think that the region justifies the insane province numbers you want to allocate to it, and if it would do so, I think that it should not be added without proper optimization, which is what @Doomdark said, and I have faith in him. So basically, they wont do this unless it is justified performance-wise, and even if your huge numbers are the only solution to add the rest Euro-Asia, they would not do it unless the performance in the game justifies it.

So your entire argument boils down to that you disagree that the rest of asia not currently on the map would not require at the very least 1000 provinces as its most abstracted (hence probably alot more than that to be properly represented) and that the Team wouldnt do it unless the game was optimized for it. Which begs the question, optimized in relation to what? Current? Because if we argue that they optimize it now, then add china and we're right back where we started in terms of optimization then its still not worth it. Why the hell would you ask for something which could in turn bring the whole thing back down again, why even bother with optimization then? And having faith in the Devs doesnt change this, the Engine can only handle so much before shit hits the fan. I am fairly certain the Devs were confident the game could handle Muslims..and Republics and Pagans and India and look where we are at now.

I dont even understand why you quote me when im arguing with another person when in my very first post i pointed out that they either should make it its own game, to avoid said performance issue, or wait until they have a improved and better engine, hence CK3 or the like to do it because they cant just swap engines out mid-cycle. That is the equivalent of asking them to remake all of CK2 and that is too costly, takes too long and for little benefit compared to the time and cost attached to that solution.