Ever thought that the Chinese aren't sailing across the Pacific, but around Africa and across the Atlantic? That would exlain why all these colonies are on the east coast of the Americas...
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Ever thought that the Chinese aren't sailing across the Pacific, but around Africa and across the Atlantic? That would exlain why all these colonies are on the east coast of the Americas...
What I meant was that in EU1, the AI didn't need a no-attrition cheat to explore properly, and had no trouble whatsoever with colonization. This isn't the case in EU2, which seems to me to indicate that the AI is now dumber with regards to exploration/colonization. Of course in most respects the AI is much improved from EU1, which makes its apparent naval stupidity all the more perplexing.
Phil
Originally posted by Duke of Earl
What I meant was that in EU1, the AI didn't need a no-attrition cheat to explore properly, and had no trouble whatsoever with colonization. This isn't the case in EU2, which seems to me to indicate that the AI is now dumber with regards to exploration/colonization. Of course in most respects the AI is much improved from EU1, which makes its apparent naval stupidity all the more perplexing.
Phil
That no attrition thingy stems from EU1.
Originally posted by Duke of Earl
What I meant was that in EU1, the AI didn't need a no-attrition cheat to explore properly, and had no trouble whatsoever with colonization. This isn't the case in EU2, which seems to me to indicate that the AI is now dumber with regards to exploration/colonization. Of course in most respects the AI is much improved from EU1, which makes its apparent naval stupidity all the more perplexing.
Phil
Attritionless AI fleets have been there since EU1 - they weren't added for EU2...
And to answer another poster's question, Portugal gets Macao in 1557 IIRC
That gives rise to a second question, then: why hasn't the AI been fixed in all this time? According to JohnMK and now Galleblære, the AI isn't hard to modify...
Phil
Phil
I had typed a looong post on this, but accidentally lost it before I submitted it, which turned out to be a good thing, because I posed a question which I have now realized the answer to. The question was: "Why is the 'China in America' thing such a big deal?" My basic point in the lost post was that the Chinese getting to the New World, while not the most likely thing, was still a reasonable alternate history possibility, and was actually probably more likely than some other things we commonly see in the game.
And then I realized three things. First, the problem is not that the Chinese get to America sometimes (though it may be too common). Rather, the problem is that if they do get there, they beat the Europeans to the Atlantic coast. And there were two reasons why people make such a big deal of this occurance. Compare and contrast this with some of the other non-historical occurances, like the HRE minors getting gobbled up or the common situation where each Irish province is owned by a different country (both of them less likely, IMO, than Chinese expansionism). You'll see 2 key differnces:
1) Player actions: The human player can gobble up HRE minors just like the AI. But the human player, playing as China, really can't beat the Europeans to the east coast of the Americas.
2) Possible fixes: It's not real obvious how to fix the too common annexation of minors and still allow historical annexations without killing gameplay. Most of the fixes I've seen proposed would probably be worse than the problem they seek to cure. But the Chinese expansionism has an obvious fix that any player can see--make the AI subject to the same naval attrition as the human player, and make it smart enough to deal with it.
So the whole thing really comes down to how hard is it to make the AI able to handle naval attrition. I have no idea how hard it is, other than I can't do it. If someone who actually knows how to program something like EU has any ideas, I'm sure Paradox would be interested. I'm sure it's not helpful for someone who doesn't know how to do it say "Well, how hard could it be?" If you know how to do it, you can ask that question, but someone like me who doesn't know how to do it, well, I don't have the right to ask. I do have the right to say that I hope they can find a way to fix it, but if they don't, they have still made a great game for us to enjoy, and I appreciate that.
And then I realized three things. First, the problem is not that the Chinese get to America sometimes (though it may be too common). Rather, the problem is that if they do get there, they beat the Europeans to the Atlantic coast. And there were two reasons why people make such a big deal of this occurance. Compare and contrast this with some of the other non-historical occurances, like the HRE minors getting gobbled up or the common situation where each Irish province is owned by a different country (both of them less likely, IMO, than Chinese expansionism). You'll see 2 key differnces:
1) Player actions: The human player can gobble up HRE minors just like the AI. But the human player, playing as China, really can't beat the Europeans to the east coast of the Americas.
2) Possible fixes: It's not real obvious how to fix the too common annexation of minors and still allow historical annexations without killing gameplay. Most of the fixes I've seen proposed would probably be worse than the problem they seek to cure. But the Chinese expansionism has an obvious fix that any player can see--make the AI subject to the same naval attrition as the human player, and make it smart enough to deal with it.
So the whole thing really comes down to how hard is it to make the AI able to handle naval attrition. I have no idea how hard it is, other than I can't do it. If someone who actually knows how to program something like EU has any ideas, I'm sure Paradox would be interested. I'm sure it's not helpful for someone who doesn't know how to do it say "Well, how hard could it be?" If you know how to do it, you can ask that question, but someone like me who doesn't know how to do it, well, I don't have the right to ask. I do have the right to say that I hope they can find a way to fix it, but if they don't, they have still made a great game for us to enjoy, and I appreciate that.
Originally posted by veracusse
I have experienced the same thing, but wierder.
I am playing a GC with England, it is aproximately 1550, and I am exploring and colonizing the Americas right now. I discover the Bahamas and am suprised to find a Chinese city, not a colony, but a city with a population over 1500+. Likewise, there are no other Chinese settlements in sight, most of the other provinces are SPanish colonies and trading posts, Maya and Aztecks, French and Portuguese, and a few of my own as well.
While playing an European nation, it is hard enough to get to the Bahamas and set up a colony/trading post, but China seems to have had no problem with this.
V
The Chinese most likely sent 6 colonists raising the pop to 600. when it hits 600 the natives join the colony. So your investment of 6 colonist can net you a city bigger than 15000 in some rare cases.
Whether the Chinese should be there in the first place is debatable, the size of their city is not abnormal.
Originally posted by Duke of Earl
That gives rise to a second question, then: why hasn't the AI been fixed in all this time? According to JohnMK and now Galleblære, the AI isn't hard to modify...
Phil
Early in the beta the attrition thing was tested. Problem was that you got a yo-yo effect on the fleets. Portugal couldn't make it round the horn of africa to india because they couldn't colonise the African coast quickly enough. Either you'd need to hard code the AI exploration or keep the no attrition thing, the later was chosen.
In any case the problem in Chinese colonisation in America is not actually caused by no-attrition but an old thing from EU1 whereby the AI always tries to colonise America. Its fixed now in beta even if the Chinese set up trade posts in East Africa, India or Indonesia now. Whether this is historic or not is another question. I think so, since they knew about the area.
How about this solution?
-Hinder their speed of colonizing by let confucian get -1 colonist for their view that oppose migration.
-Let they not interest in america at first by force it avoid Atlantic and Pacific exploration at the start and force it to expand to Manchuria ,east of Siberia early and follow by Indonesia ,Philippine ,Indian Ocean ,East Africa and maybe Australia for their choice to outward expansion.(need new ai for this choice.)
-Maybe let them interest in America by sleeping event that should awake after outward expansion in mid 16th century after Spain discovered America ,magellan or someone can travel around the globe and already made contact with Spain let china choose to interest in America or not and should let them go by Pacific route colonize in West coast of America. (Not for eastern coast)Why should they take atlantic route since it possible for travel across Pacific?
-If China choose inward perfection should have events for increace tax base of SE Asia provinces instance since it have many chinese migrate out of south China by famine netural disaster and revolt and go the sattle their bisinese as the middle class in SE Asia. It happened around late 16 to mid 20 century.(If china choose outward expansion should get some colonist instance.)
-Hinder their speed of colonizing by let confucian get -1 colonist for their view that oppose migration.
-Let they not interest in america at first by force it avoid Atlantic and Pacific exploration at the start and force it to expand to Manchuria ,east of Siberia early and follow by Indonesia ,Philippine ,Indian Ocean ,East Africa and maybe Australia for their choice to outward expansion.(need new ai for this choice.)
-Maybe let them interest in America by sleeping event that should awake after outward expansion in mid 16th century after Spain discovered America ,magellan or someone can travel around the globe and already made contact with Spain let china choose to interest in America or not and should let them go by Pacific route colonize in West coast of America. (Not for eastern coast)Why should they take atlantic route since it possible for travel across Pacific?
-If China choose inward perfection should have events for increace tax base of SE Asia provinces instance since it have many chinese migrate out of south China by famine netural disaster and revolt and go the sattle their bisinese as the middle class in SE Asia. It happened around late 16 to mid 20 century.(If china choose outward expansion should get some colonist instance.)
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No, I never thought of the Chinese going the other way, because just past the Cape was as far as I could make it when I played China.
Somebody allready touched on this....the AI is told in the nation's AI files which areas to colonize, if at all possible.....can the same thing be done for EXPLORING? That way, Portugal could have a emphasis on Africa and Asia, China on the same areas, Spain on North and South America, etc.
Somebody allready touched on this....the AI is told in the nation's AI files which areas to colonize, if at all possible.....can the same thing be done for EXPLORING? That way, Portugal could have a emphasis on Africa and Asia, China on the same areas, Spain on North and South America, etc.
This is going to sound stupid, but perhaps AI explorers should suffer attrition, non-explorers not?
I think that would solve the problem somewhat, though it's a silly fix.
Would keep things a bit more realistic though.
I think that would solve the problem somewhat, though it's a silly fix.
Would keep things a bit more realistic though.
Originally posted by Duke of Earl
According to JohnMK and now Galleblære, the AI isn't hard to modify...
Phil
That's because they don't have to actually do it
Originally posted by BiB
That's because they don't have to actually do it
Heh, I figured as much... but JohnMK really had me convinced. Guess his monarch has a high Admin rating...
Phil
I suspect the thing you are upset about isn't the fact that Zheng He explores as far as he does. Rather it is the effects of the expansionistic option at Zheng He's death that is the supposed problem.After all, who really cares what areas the Chinese know if they don't have any colonists to exploit them?
Two unrelated comments;
1. It's not too hard to get a long of exploring done with Zheng He if you commit to it. The main trick is to get military access to the countries you discover along the way. Getting basing rights in Zanzibar or one of the Ivory Coast countries means you can go far.
2. In my current game as Nippon, the Chinese were nice enough to show me their maps in 1450. Zheng He circumnavigated the globe, discovered parts of the Carribbean [including Havan ^h^h^h^h^h New Kyoto, now a 700 soul Nipponese colony] discovered Protugal and almost reached Ireland before his death [at least I assume so, since there is a spur of explored sea that goes nowhere]. While I tend to believe that Zheng He probably discovered America first, that is a lot of ground to cover.
Steve
Two unrelated comments;
1. It's not too hard to get a long of exploring done with Zheng He if you commit to it. The main trick is to get military access to the countries you discover along the way. Getting basing rights in Zanzibar or one of the Ivory Coast countries means you can go far.
2. In my current game as Nippon, the Chinese were nice enough to show me their maps in 1450. Zheng He circumnavigated the globe, discovered parts of the Carribbean [including Havan ^h^h^h^h^h New Kyoto, now a 700 soul Nipponese colony] discovered Protugal and almost reached Ireland before his death [at least I assume so, since there is a spur of explored sea that goes nowhere]. While I tend to believe that Zheng He probably discovered America first, that is a lot of ground to cover.
Steve
In almost all my Grand Campaigns, 80% of 'em, I still see a chinese explorer travel every inch of Europe for about a decade. v. 1.04
The no-attrition thing also means Portugal is routinely ashore in the Spice Islands by the late 1420s.
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