bluelotus said:Thank you very much, but there are two more days till my b-day
I got this ICQ notice at midnight. Did not check it. Apparently one gets it 2 days ahead. So you still have two days to smash a few banks
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I got this ICQ notice at midnight. Did not check it. Apparently one gets it 2 days ahead. So you still have two days to smash a few banks
Daniel A said:I got this ICQ notice at midnight. Did not check it. Apparently one gets it 2 days ahead. So you still have two days to smash a few banks
Nah, you vile Swedes lets your youngsters to rob until their 15th year, but in Hungary its 14
bluelotus said:Nah, you vile Swedes lets your youngsters to rob until their 15th year, but in Hungary its 14
What can you do on your freetime in Hungary when you have just turned 15 then?
Yay, then you'll be 15, like me
And the above rules seem fine, although I would disagree with colonies as half but as there are very few colonies I won't bother
And the above rules seem fine, although I would disagree with colonies as half but as there are very few colonies I won't bother
Dr Bob said:Yay, then you'll be 15, like me
And the above rules seem fine, although I would disagree with colonies as half but as there are very few colonies I won't bother
Ah, the youngsters of today, all excited over being 15...
I say, the age is catching up to me now.
I also think the rules above look nice.
Aladar said:
I do not know if the following is a bug or only something that needs to be clarified.
First it says that you can ask for 4 provinces up to 1650 and then more. I understand that as if I attack a human opponent I can always take up to four provinces (6 for the alliance). But then the last paragraph says a human country cannot lose more than 3 provinces under special circumstances. Is this last paragraph to be understood as an exception to the general rule? If so then that cap of 3 should be raised as the general rule cap is. Else it would be advantageous for the attacked nation to be attacked by two nations compared to being attacked by one.
Further more: what does the phrase "at the same time" add to the definition?
There are also some unclear situations that may occur.
All of this convinced me that I needed to rewrite the suggested wording. In my rewritten text I have not gone against antything that Aladar suggested, but in several cases I have been forced to guess what Aladar intended so it may superficiously appear as I go against him. However, the only new things I on purpose have added are loopholes I have found that I try to cover.
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HOW MANY PROVINCES CAN YOU TAKE IN A PEACE TREATY
There are no restrictions on what you can take from the AI.
There are restrictions on what you can take from a human opponent. These restrictions are decided by the following four rules
1. Basic rule
2. Formal Alliance
3. Informal Alliance
4. Turboannexation
and will be explained in detail below.
Province points
First we will decide the concept of "province points".
Code:
COT 2 points
Colony 0.5 points
TP 0 points
Other 1 pointRule 1. Basic Rule
You are not allowed to take more province points than according below from an opponent in a war.
1419-1650: max 4 province points
1650-1750: max 6 province points
1750-1819: max 8 province points
The year refers to the year of the peace.
Rule 2. Formal Alliance
For an alliance the cap is 2 points more than the base rule. I.e. nations in an alliance can together take 2 more points than the basic rule allows. Note: alliances on the losing side are irrelevant. Each nation in a losing alliance can lose the number of points defined in these rules.
Definition of alliance: Each nation is considered to be in alliance with another nation if these two nations were formally allied at any moment during a period of uninterrupted war with the opponent in question. The criterion of "uninterrupted" only needs to be true for one of the nations, e.g. say A DOWs X and B joins A; then B makes peace with X (thus B "interrupts" his war with X); then B reDOWs X on his own before A makes peace; in this situation A and B are still considered to be in alliance.
Rule 3. Informal alliance
If you are considered to have an informal alliance with another nation rule 2 applies for you as well. For this to apply the condition is:
If a nation is already engaged in war and then another nation makes an independent DOW while the WE of the DOWed nation is above zero, the attacking nations are all considered to be in an informal alliance.
WE refers to WE to the WE of the capital of the DOWed nation.
Exception: if the last war the DOWed nation engaged in before the DOW now in question, was a war with the AI rule 3 does not apply.
Rule 4. Turboannexation
There is no limit to the number of province points you take by Turboannexation of a part of an opponent's realm.
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COMMENTS
There are some things here that I have only guessed what was intended. Aladar can point out if I guessed wrong. Anyhow I believe this set of rules are clear. Whether they are wise is another question. But clarity is the number 1 criterion of any rule.
I just want to add that regarding the WE rule I referred to the capital instead of "any province" which was what Norrefeldt/Aladar suggested. The reason is not that I think my suggestion is more fair than Norrefeldt's, the reason is that it is much simpler for an attacking/defending nation to check for the WE in the capital than checking it it in all provinces of that nation on the globe. Why does he need to check all provinces? Well my guess is that quite a few players do not know what governs WE and thus they won't know in what type of provinces it is they must check for WE. If we say "all provinces" instead of "capital province" we need a help text: something like "check for WE in any non-state-religion province. No other province can have a higher WE."
Concerning province points I would have preferred
- COT 3
- Gold 2
- Colony 0.5
- TP 0
- Other 1
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As I have understood the rules, there's still a 3 points maximum for AI, and turboannexation is no exception. I agree in that Aladar's post 1377 isn't clear: first it says 4, 5 or 6 provinces due to year, and the next sentence says 3. I suppose that 3 should be fixed.
I don't think we should go by WE in capital, as that is lower and allows people to be attaked before WE has disappeared.
EDIT: I change my mind and think the WE should be for the capital, as Daniel suggests. So far all nations know the capital of all others, but that might change soon, and we might have to edit in som map knowledge.
I don't think we should go by WE in capital, as that is lower and allows people to be attaked before WE has disappeared.
EDIT: I change my mind and think the WE should be for the capital, as Daniel suggests. So far all nations know the capital of all others, but that might change soon, and we might have to edit in som map knowledge.
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I am going to Wales for a few days, so I will be unable to do edits, although I should be back for the game.
Ups forgot to edit that copy/paste i made. It should have been.
Human vs. human offers: x provs rule from enemy (+2 from an alliance).
1419 - 1650 = 4 provinses
1650 - 1750 = 6 provinses
1750 - 1819 = 8 provinses
Alliance is always +2
TPs count for 0, colonies ½ (less than 1000 inhabitants), all provinses 1, CoT for 2.
No alliance rules, but a human country can only lose 4/6/8 provinces to an attack by any powers (human) attacking at the same time or before war exhaustion of the attacked country have decreased to 0 in the capital provinces. (The limitation due to war exhaustion does not apply if the last war that country got involved in was against the AI.)
Should we make this the rule for peace between human vs. ai too?
Human vs. human offers: x provs rule from enemy (+2 from an alliance).
1419 - 1650 = 4 provinses
1650 - 1750 = 6 provinses
1750 - 1819 = 8 provinses
Alliance is always +2
TPs count for 0, colonies ½ (less than 1000 inhabitants), all provinses 1, CoT for 2.
No alliance rules, but a human country can only lose 4/6/8 provinces to an attack by any powers (human) attacking at the same time or before war exhaustion of the attacked country have decreased to 0 in the capital provinces. (The limitation due to war exhaustion does not apply if the last war that country got involved in was against the AI.)
Should we make this the rule for peace between human vs. ai too?
Aladar said:
I do not understand. I pointed to some inaccuracies and some loopholes. You choose oonly to implement a few of them without commenting on the rest.
1. It says "all provinces 1". This is just wrong. It should be "other provinces 1" and then you need to name the COT cost first.
2. It is "capital province" ,not "capital provinces". The capital can only be in one province.
3. My extended definition of an "alliance" has not been mentioned.
4. As it stands now the "alliance +2" applies in the basic case but not in the "informal alliance" rule. Thus a nation attacked by one alliance can lose up to 6 provinces before 1600. All well, but as soon as another nation DOWs that nation then the number of provinces decreases to 4 for all of them. :wacko:
Writing rules is a complicated thing. I strongly suggest you pick my wording and only change those items where I have misunderstood your intention. You can for example just delete the turboannexation passage if you do not like it.
And yes, what was your intention regarding the AI?
Brandenburg would like 2 generals next session, Ill edit it in to my AAR but Ill post here just to make sure I get them.
The sub in Naples forceannexed Lousiana. We had forgotten to tell him he could not take more than three provinces in one war. This must be sorted out.
As I will prolly be the one doing the edits if I understand Bob right (Bob you and Aladar sort this out and do it quickly) I request that Gamlasemlan finds out the details and informs us what provinces should go back to Lousiana that should be recreated. However I am not sure how to do that. They cannot be created as vassals of Naples. One could go back to the starting save and copy over the stats for them into the new save and edit away ownership for Naples. But that would not solve diplo relations and such. Does one need to insert lines for dipl relation etc in all other nations that knew about them? And did any nation that Lousiana have diplo contact with in 1600 cease to exist during the session? That is a potential bug as well.
All in all a little troublesome. One solution could be to let Naples keep all it took but pay a penalty in ducats for what the wars would have cost them to take the rest and the income they have gotten from that area (in case it is considered to be higher than the gained stab cost).
At the start of the session Lousiana (BTW incorrectly spelled by the scenario creator ) owned 8 provinces. Later on 2 more defected to them. Thus they owned 10 provinces at the time of the annexation in 1616. It should have taken Naples three more wars and three 5-years of truce periods to annex them. Assuming a war takes 1 year that makes another 18 years, i.e. it would have been theirs at the earliest in 1634.
As I will prolly be the one doing the edits if I understand Bob right (Bob you and Aladar sort this out and do it quickly) I request that Gamlasemlan finds out the details and informs us what provinces should go back to Lousiana that should be recreated. However I am not sure how to do that. They cannot be created as vassals of Naples. One could go back to the starting save and copy over the stats for them into the new save and edit away ownership for Naples. But that would not solve diplo relations and such. Does one need to insert lines for dipl relation etc in all other nations that knew about them? And did any nation that Lousiana have diplo contact with in 1600 cease to exist during the session? That is a potential bug as well.
All in all a little troublesome. One solution could be to let Naples keep all it took but pay a penalty in ducats for what the wars would have cost them to take the rest and the income they have gotten from that area (in case it is considered to be higher than the gained stab cost).
At the start of the session Lousiana (BTW incorrectly spelled by the scenario creator
) owned 8 provinces. Later on 2 more defected to them. Thus they owned 10 provinces at the time of the annexation in 1616. It should have taken Naples three more wars and three 5-years of truce periods to annex them. Assuming a war takes 1 year that makes another 18 years, i.e. it would have been theirs at the earliest in 1634.
There are several things that must immediately be adressed by our GM - see posts above
Norrefeldt said:
I agree with this. It gives the AI a longer time span in the game. Something I like. The game is more complicated when there are both AI and Humans to interact with.
Typically those who consider EU chiefly a game about human to human wars, i.e. have a dwarfed and simplistic view of this grand game, appreciates to get rid of the AI as soon as possible. I do not.
Norrefeldt said:
OK, that solves one of the problems. However, if I am going to do the edits I would prefer not to wake up Lousiana from the dead. It still appears a bit tricky.
BTW, I will straight away say that if I have not recieved notice before noon tomorrow that I am the one who must do them then I will not do them.
I absolutely refuse to cooperate like the previous week when I had to do them late Wednesday afternoon because the necessary instructions were not issued. It is now more than 24 hours ago that Bob said he would not do any edits and still we do not know who will make them.
If I am the one that will do the edits you can all be sure I will apply the same rules as I announced the week before.
Volunteers to do the edits are wellcome.
Daniel A said:The sub in Naples forceannexed Lousiana. We had forgotten to tell him he could not take more than three provinces in one war. This must be sorted out.
As I will prolly be the one doing the edits if I understand Bob right (Bob you and Aladar sort this out and do it quickly) I request that Gamlasemlan finds out the details and informs us what provinces should go back to Lousiana that should be recreated. However I am not sure how to do that. They cannot be created as vassals of Naples. One could go back to the starting save and copy over the stats for them into the new save and edit away ownership for Naples. But that would not solve diplo relations and such. Does one need to insert lines for dipl relation etc in all other nations that knew about them? And did any nation that Lousiana have diplo contact with in 1600 cease to exist during the session? That is a potential bug as well.
All in all a little troublesome. One solution could be to let Naples keep all it took but pay a penalty in ducats for what the wars would have cost them to take the rest and the income they have gotten from that area (in case it is considered to be higher than the gained stab cost).
At the start of the session Lousiana (BTW incorrectly spelled by the scenario creator
Aye give Naples a penalty of 1000d for the provinses.