Chill 3 - AoI 1337

[HolisticGod]

Grabah,

Poland will need substantial edits. Both it and Germany were AI, and the latter beat the shit out of the former a couple times.

All,

Pretty uneventful session until the end. Aragon annexed Genoa early on, which the Commons could not abide. When it went further and enslaved the free Republics of Modena and Florence, a rallying cry of liberty went out across the Frenglish Empire. I DOWed Jerusalem, thinking I still had a CB, and was very sad to see the -3 stab. My intention was to force the liberation of Genoa, a demand I communicated to Aladar, but he refused to honor Jerusalem's alliance call, at no stab penalty, and instead forced me to take -2 DOWing under the overlord rule.

I took the max possible-Genoa, Florence and Emilia-in a punitive expedition to Naples and Sicily. Norfolk was preparing to invade Spain itself, and take Aragon's maps, when peace was signed.

The lesson: Don't be an asshole.

 

[HolisticGod]

All,

Stats: http://www.europa2.ru/cgi-bin/leagu...kyrie.net VII&game=XVI&yearsave=1515&lang=eng

I tried posting a screenshot, but it didn't show up.

It does look like I'm awfully close to being able to restore Venice afterall, by the by, for anybody who'd be interested in playing it.

 

[Aladar]

The lesson: Don't be an asshole.

For someone who often violated the first rule, one might think you can only spell not read.

Rules:

NO. 1 No page long posts - posting them will severly anger the GM !

- If you want to dow a vassal nation always dow the overlord.
(If the Vassal is a player himself, this rule doesn't apply)
(If the Vassal declares war, a human defender need not declare war upon the overlord, but you can only take land if you dow the overlord)

The lesson: HolisticGod has been an asshole the entire game, and clearly doesn't give a damn about the rules. SO START READING THEM

 

[HolisticGod]

Aladar,

Er, no, I give a damn about the rules. I followed the rules. Except rule one, which is utter garbage.

That I had to DOW the overlord and take the -2 stab is immaterial. I did that willingly. But if you'd simply honored the alliance call, the point would've been moot. You didn't out of spite. You lost three provinces, including a COT, and a vassal-ally with the second highest MP province in Italy.

Six provinces down because you're a prick and a pedant. You've also been mindlessly hostile to me all game. Which is certainly your right, but you'll keep losing provinces as long you play this way.

 

[Aladar]

You are the one who tried to go around the rules. This one is very clear and can't be difficult to understand.

The sole reason for attacking my vassel was to get me into the war, with you still having MA. So either pay the price for MA or stop blaming the rules for being against you. They are the same for all.

 

[unmerged(6147)]

While I wholeheartedly agree with HoG about the 1-page rule I am perplexed by this Jerusalem affair. Was KoJ a vassal of Aragon and Frengland DOWed KoJ? Despite the rule forbidding it?

 

[unmerged(38752)]

While I wholeheartedly agree with HoG about the 1-page rule I am perplexed by this Jerusalem affair. Was KoJ a vassal of Aragon and Frengland DOWed KoJ? Despite the rule forbidding it?

It appears he did. In this one case I can not agree with HoG. The rule is clear: DoW the overlord if you DoW the vassal. Not wait for him to honour the call or anything, just DoW. Seems simple enough to me.

Anyway, I'll update the stats with a screenshot.

And thanks a lot Raspoutine! Looks like you did excellent.

 

[unmerged(38752)]

Oh my God, Poland got fucked. What edits should I do? Since I don't really know what happened...

 

[Aladar]

Just edit them back to 1496-state and give them each 500d. That should teach people to show up or get a sub.

 

[unmerged(38752)]

Just edit them back to 1496-state and give them each 500d. That should teach people to show up or get a sub.

I'll see about that yes.

 

[unmerged(41172)]

It appears he did. In this one case I can not agree with HoG. The rule is clear: DoW the overlord if you DoW the vassal. Not wait for him to honour the call or anything, just DoW. Seems simple enough to me.

Anyway, I'll update the stats with a screenshot.

I wasn't there but rule seems clear enough and HoG clearly declared he DOWed a vassal. Please people, respect GM and obey the rules. (except that first uber stupid one)

 

[unmerged(49182)]

Isnt it possible to make some sort of punishment if a rule is broken?
Everyone in a game should be familiar with all the rules and if they intentionally break one some sort of punishment should be given.
At least thats my opinion.

 

[Moredhel]

Dago broke it too and wasn't punished at all.

 

[unmerged(49182)]

Thats why it would be good with punishments, less people would break the rules.

 

[ForzaA]

from what I read, Frengland followed the spirit of the rule, rather than the letter.


Which should be applauded

The rule, as I have always seen it used, was meant to avoid that a human overlord had to take stabhits/BB hits or the like to defend their vassals.
If the vassal is allied, there's no problem there o



...and I think we can safely assume that if Frengland had dowed the overlord, he would THEN have to dow the vassal aswell, since the overlord wouldn't invite the vassal...

[size=+2]Flame on![/size]

 

[unmerged(36826)]

from what I read, Frengland followed the spirit of the rule, rather than the letter.


Which should be applauded

The rule, as I have always seen it used, was meant to avoid that a human overlord had to take stabhits/BB hits or the like to defend their vassals.
If the vassal is allied, there's no problem there o



...and I think we can safely assume that if Frengland had dowed the overlord, he would THEN have to dow the vassal aswell, since the overlord wouldn't invite the vassal...

[size=+2]Flame on![/size]

I have taken on board what you have said and in some ways you are right,
But in a more accurate way you are totally wrong

HoG attempted to Dow jersualem instead because

a)he had a CB (or thought he did)
b) he could then use the army he had stationed in Catalonia, annihilating Aladar's army right at the start of the war. He would have to cancel MA to Dow normally and therby spoil his plan.

So I think we can say that he was being gamey, however that is not really relevant, he broke a rule that had already been brought up and as such really should be punished (as should Dago)

 

[HolisticGod]

All,

Actually, I didn't break any rules. Nor did I try to circumvent them.

I was hoping that Aladar would do as Forzaa said. My argument is not that he was in the wrong, technically, by forcing me to DOW the overlord (which, incidentally, I did two months after Jerusalem, because I had to cancel MA first). My argument is that he could have simply honored the alliance call, therefore keeping us in compliance with the rule and sparing me two more stabhits after the obscene -3 I got for not paying attention.

He didn't not out of a cloying dedication to the exact letter of the rules (i.e., if he'd simply honored the call, the rules would have been followed and he knew it), but maliciously so I'd have to take the stabhit. Whether you agree with his decision (as it appears Daniel, Oz, et al do) or disagree (as Forza does, in his correct analysis of what really happened), he had every right to make it. The rule is clear. That's why I followed it-and I never asked that it be ignored, argued that it read differently or considered violating it. As soon as Aladar made clear he wouldn't honor, I took the necessary steps and followed the rule. No harm was done because I didn't DOW Aragon immediately after Jerusalem (which I would've done, but for the MA), namely because I wasn't after Jerusalem at all. In point of fact, it cost me a lot of troops in attrition, gave Aladar months to prepare and defeated all of my momentum.

So those are the facts. Nobody broke any rules. I didn't even argue that the rule should be changed after the fact. I think it's fine the way it is, although I'd be in favor if someone wanted to amend it such that dishonoring an alliance call is the same as accepting white peace without one's vassals. Aladar was right in enforcing the rule. I was right in following it to the letter.

The crux of the argument is that Aladar, as the player of Aragon, could've saved me the -2 stab if he hadn't viciously declined the alliance call. Because he didn't, he pissed me off. That doesn't mean I broke the rule or talked about breaking the rule or even considered breaking the rule (you can check the log-I followed it exactly). It's just that, as a player, HoG was not in the mood to be any more generous than Aladar was. So he lost three provinces for being an asshole.

That's all I said. I didn't challenge the rule in any way. I just recommended that Aladar consider being a touch more chivalrous in the future. Rather than releasing one COT (which was my stated demand at first), he lost three very rich provinces and a three province ex-vassal/ally.

We have to obey the letter of the rules, Daniel. You're quite correct. And on reconsideration of what actually happened, I do hope you see that I did exactly that. But that doesn't mean we have to be ungentlemanly. Or, more to the point, ungentlemanly when we know it can do us far more harm than the other guy in the long run.

 

[unmerged(43658)]

ohh shiite!
just saw what happened to my poor litlle poland.
sorry i didn't showed up, i got hold up more than i expected.
i got bad news as far as my monday playing availibility. i have to do civil service (don't know does this means same thing in english as in croatian) and can be home, that is ready to play, around half hour or so after the session starts.
if you guys find this unaceptable i'll understand but i would still like to continue the game as long as it will be possible for my country in this condition anyway.

 

[unmerged(38752)]

Grabah: I will be fixing your country We'd be happy to have you play still, if you are fine with being AIed for the first part of the session.

Anyway, HoG, the fact that you still had MA in Aragon makes not Aladar the asshole, but you (since we are throwing that word around anyway). Either you should've canceled the MA BEFORE DoWing KoJ, or you should've canceled the MA and DoWed Aragon. The problem with your current tactic is that you could've abused the Aragonese MA if Aladar had honoured the alliance call, or Aragon would've had to cancel it at the cost of 1 stab (dishonouring the call). The thing Bob said, about you putting an army in catalonia hoping for Aladar to honour the call to annihilate his army there immediately... that makes you a huge asshole in my view. The fact that you took 3 provinces after that, including a CoT, makes you an even bigger one. I think you knew perfectly well the predicament Aladar was in when you DoWed KoJ. Now you are trying to cover up your cheap, gamey tactic by focusing on Aladar's anger about the situation.

If I am correct in my view of what happened (which Bob, an objective neutral would suggest) then I stand by my point. Elseway, someone impartial (so not HoG or Aladar) will just have to correct me.

 

[unmerged(41172)]

I looked in rules. This is excerpt from rules;

"If you want to dow a vassal nation always dow the overlord."

HoG didn't break rules. I thought rules state something else; "If you want to dow a vassal nation always dow the overlord first." Since first is not in the end of original rule HoG haven't broke any rule. Therefore I suggest adding 'first' to the end of that rule NOW. Other than that I agree with other players and I don't think Aladar was an 'asshole' nor that HoG should use such words to describe behaviour of the GM's. From what I have seen Aladar never used such words so he really haven't deserved it.

Over and out.