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Ok ok, here is my story. I just read that Saber is a new player, which makes me infinitely less mad instantly. I'll keep it as short as possible. Be aware that this is not meant as an excuse, but merely as information. I really don't care if any of your think of my leaving early as unjustified, since I still think it was (even after cooling down).
Anyway, I shall begin with some warfacts, since they may be unknown to players not following it directly (somewhat AAR as well).
France and Venice DoWed Austria and Russia. In troop count and MP we were behind, since Russia has craploads, but we thought a quick blitzkrieg versus Austria would secure us victory in the end. So we did. I controlled half of Austria's land after the initial offensive. War went on for some time, with me stabhitting Austria. In time however, Russia pushed in on Venice and Forzaa's uber leaders killed quite a lot of Venetians. It was an exciting war, with Russia/Austria slowly getting the edge back. If it would've continued this way, it would have gotten even more exciting, though I think we would've lost in the end. Russia is just so damn powerful. Then Poland saw his chance vs Russia finally and decided to attack as well. Poland's forces were mostly fighting Russia, apart from a small looting force in Bohemia. Then, England DoWed me. Be aware, I am not complaining about him backstabbing me or something. It WAS a backstab, but it still was a good move. I only had some troops left on the spanish border (around 150k) the rest was fighting Austria. And were kinda thinned. Anyway, England landed about 300k troops and marched through Caux and Picardie towards Paris and Champagne. He has superior numbers and leaders, so my plan was to attrition him and kill what I could. I lost about 150k in 2 battles, but he lost at least the same amount due to combat and attrition in that time. In the meantime however, Poland and Venice were getting slaughtered. Dago's skill was the only thing keeping them alive actually. So, I decided to peace out with England. I asked him to state his demands. At that point I had about 250k troops in my mainland, with little leaders, versus England's 200k. I could've pushed him out in time probably, but I couldn't let my allies be slaughtered. So I took the hit for them. England demanded St Thomas and Picardie. Although being the maximum he could demand, I agreed for said reasons. I said we had a peace agreement, and asked him to retreat his troops and take St Thomas so we could finalize this. England agreed. his troops were retreated to Calais and beyond. I in the meantime redirected my army towards Austria again, in an effort to help Venice which was sitting very tight, and preventing Austria from recapturing all those provs I took (which was actually the only reason they couldn't stabhit us yet
). My 250k were fighting, I could not produce much more due to England occupying all these provs and WE getting higher and money lower. I was slowly losing these troops but they were doing their job at least. My mainland was totally undefended with all troops in Austria. England took St Thomas, and I offered the peace. Suddenly, England declined. When I asked him why, he suddenly said he also demanded I WP'ed with Austria (only ME, not the alliance. Check the AoI thread for that were he admits this). He had NOT mentioned this before. He had even litterally said "we have an agreement" when we peaced for St Thomas and Picardie. He said he wanted to "prevent more French expansion into Germany". I told him I could not do this, since I would be abandoning Poland and especially Venice, my ally. They would easily get slaughtered and raped by AUS/RUS without my (however crumbled) assistance. While I was actually still explaining myself, he started moving 300k into my land again, assaulting provinces, burning manus, basically destoying my country. I asked him to stop so we could discuss this. I offered him other things, like a public agreement/statement from me where I would say NOT to take any Austrian provs. Like an offer for all to WP. Etc. etc. Then he did the thing that made me leave. He ignored me. He ignored my pleas for agreement, while he was burning my country. Nothing indicating he was even listening to my (very reasonable) offers. I then did something I despise normally, namely making this public. He then responded with the "I just want you to WP austria" again, which was for me a sign that he was listening, and I tried to take the conversation to PM again. Then he ignored me again. At that point, I snapped. It was just one thing too many. He was being as unreasonable and unchill as I've ever seen anyone be in this or any other game. Then, when I announced I was gonna call it a night, he had the nerve to ask Forzaa to pause so we could discuss an agreement.
When I now look back at it, I'm not sorry for leaving. I was so mad at the moment that I was about to say things about his mother. I think that is a moment where one just has to leave the game.
Now however, I can forgive him since it's his first MP game. He should just know that I am not the only one who would get mad in such a situation. No hard feelings though. It's past now.
EDIT- Btw, thumps up for Dr Bob for not backstabbing me at that moment too. Though actually, that might have given my mood a boost since that would've just been funny coming from him
Anyway, I shall begin with some warfacts, since they may be unknown to players not following it directly (somewhat AAR as well).
France and Venice DoWed Austria and Russia. In troop count and MP we were behind, since Russia has craploads, but we thought a quick blitzkrieg versus Austria would secure us victory in the end. So we did. I controlled half of Austria's land after the initial offensive. War went on for some time, with me stabhitting Austria. In time however, Russia pushed in on Venice and Forzaa's uber leaders killed quite a lot of Venetians. It was an exciting war, with Russia/Austria slowly getting the edge back. If it would've continued this way, it would have gotten even more exciting, though I think we would've lost in the end. Russia is just so damn powerful. Then Poland saw his chance vs Russia finally and decided to attack as well. Poland's forces were mostly fighting Russia, apart from a small looting force in Bohemia. Then, England DoWed me. Be aware, I am not complaining about him backstabbing me or something. It WAS a backstab, but it still was a good move. I only had some troops left on the spanish border (around 150k) the rest was fighting Austria. And were kinda thinned. Anyway, England landed about 300k troops and marched through Caux and Picardie towards Paris and Champagne. He has superior numbers and leaders, so my plan was to attrition him and kill what I could. I lost about 150k in 2 battles, but he lost at least the same amount due to combat and attrition in that time. In the meantime however, Poland and Venice were getting slaughtered. Dago's skill was the only thing keeping them alive actually. So, I decided to peace out with England. I asked him to state his demands. At that point I had about 250k troops in my mainland, with little leaders, versus England's 200k. I could've pushed him out in time probably, but I couldn't let my allies be slaughtered. So I took the hit for them. England demanded St Thomas and Picardie. Although being the maximum he could demand, I agreed for said reasons. I said we had a peace agreement, and asked him to retreat his troops and take St Thomas so we could finalize this. England agreed. his troops were retreated to Calais and beyond. I in the meantime redirected my army towards Austria again, in an effort to help Venice which was sitting very tight, and preventing Austria from recapturing all those provs I took (which was actually the only reason they couldn't stabhit us yet
). My 250k were fighting, I could not produce much more due to England occupying all these provs and WE getting higher and money lower. I was slowly losing these troops but they were doing their job at least. My mainland was totally undefended with all troops in Austria. England took St Thomas, and I offered the peace. Suddenly, England declined. When I asked him why, he suddenly said he also demanded I WP'ed with Austria (only ME, not the alliance. Check the AoI thread for that were he admits this). He had NOT mentioned this before. He had even litterally said "we have an agreement" when we peaced for St Thomas and Picardie. He said he wanted to "prevent more French expansion into Germany". I told him I could not do this, since I would be abandoning Poland and especially Venice, my ally. They would easily get slaughtered and raped by AUS/RUS without my (however crumbled) assistance. While I was actually still explaining myself, he started moving 300k into my land again, assaulting provinces, burning manus, basically destoying my country. I asked him to stop so we could discuss this. I offered him other things, like a public agreement/statement from me where I would say NOT to take any Austrian provs. Like an offer for all to WP. Etc. etc. Then he did the thing that made me leave. He ignored me. He ignored my pleas for agreement, while he was burning my country. Nothing indicating he was even listening to my (very reasonable) offers. I then did something I despise normally, namely making this public. He then responded with the "I just want you to WP austria" again, which was for me a sign that he was listening, and I tried to take the conversation to PM again. Then he ignored me again. At that point, I snapped. It was just one thing too many. He was being as unreasonable and unchill as I've ever seen anyone be in this or any other game. Then, when I announced I was gonna call it a night, he had the nerve to ask Forzaa to pause so we could discuss an agreement.When I now look back at it, I'm not sorry for leaving. I was so mad at the moment that I was about to say things about his mother. I think that is a moment where one just has to leave the game.
Now however, I can forgive him since it's his first MP game. He should just know that I am not the only one who would get mad in such a situation. No hard feelings though. It's past now.
EDIT- Btw, thumps up for Dr Bob for not backstabbing me at that moment too. Though actually, that might have given my mood a boost since that would've just been funny coming from him
Thank you Ozzeh, that certainly does clear up some things... I wonder what Saber has to say for himself
Ozzeh said:Then, England DoWed me. Be aware, I am not complaining about him backstabbing me or something. It WAS a backstab, but it still was a good move. I only had some troops left on the spanish border (around 150k) the rest was fighting Austria. And were kinda thinned. Anyway, England landed about 300k troops and marched through Caux and Picardie towards Paris and Champagne. He has superior numbers and leaders, so my plan was to attrition him and kill what I could. I lost about 150k in 2 battles, but he lost at least the same amount due to combat and attrition in that time. In the meantime however, Poland and Venice were getting slaughtered. Dago's skill was the only thing keeping them alive actually. So, I decided to peace out with England. I asked him to state his demands. At that point I had about 250k troops in my mainland, with little leaders, versus England's 200k. I could've pushed him out in time probably, but I couldn't let my allies be slaughtered. So I took the hit for them. England demanded St Thomas and Picardie. Although being the maximum he could demand, I agreed for said reasons. I said we had a peace agreement, and asked him to retreat his troops and take St Thomas so we could finalize this. England agreed. his troops were retreated to Calais and beyond. I in the meantime redirected my army towards Austria again, in an effort to help Venice which was sitting very tight, and preventing Austria from recapturing all those provs I took (which was actually the only reason they couldn't stabhit us yet
Ozzeh, I'm not sure if you sent your PM to the wrong person or what. I have the save, I have read the history so I can check if I maybe missed your PMs. I have not. I will paste the transcript (yes I know it can be easily manipulated, I can send the save if someone wants or can verify it.). This starts after defeating his main armies and taking a few provinces.
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*demands england?"
"April 11, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Ile de France."
"SaberDancer (England) :*St. Thomas and Picardie"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*st thomas alone ?"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*picardie is national;"
"SaberDancer (England) :*no, and picardie"
"May 13, 1775 : Agricultural Revolution happened to us."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*ok fine... but take st thomas then"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*and stop aggression in france"
"June 7, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Bourgogne."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*please, I surrender to those demands"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*get your troops out"
"SaberDancer (England) : ok,"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*agreement is made"
"July 14, 1775 : Longman` awaits your command in Straits of Dover."
"August 26, 1775 : Callaghan has finished unloading in St. Thomas."
"August 26, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in St. Thomas."
"SaberDancer (England) :*one more thing, peace with austria. I do not want french expansion in germany"
(I know this is kinda late but I never said it's a deal. I only agreed to retreat my armies so we can negotiate)
"September 25, 1775 : Netherlands declared war upon Sweden."
"September 28, 1775 : We captured the province of St. Thomas from France"
"SaberDancer (England) :*ok? and peace with Austria"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*england?"
"SaberDancer (England) :*peace with Austria?"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*peace was agreed right?"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*I cannot! russia demands stuff from venice"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*not in my hands"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*but I will not take territory from austria"
"SaberDancer (England) :*well, Venice attacked"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*yes but I cant abandon my ally... dont be unreasonable"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*just accept the peace already :S"
(he kept sending me St. Thomas and Picardie deal. And he was not agreeing to WP with Austria)
"SaberDancer (England) :*he will be defeated, you can attack him."
"December 27, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Ile de France."
(I moved my forces again to France, so he can see that it is better for him if he agreed to my peace terms. I was not aware that it was unusual request or anything.)
"January 4, 1776 : Adam Smith publishes 'The Wealth of Nations' happened to us."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*really, what do you hope to accomplish? just peace"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*this is lame on your part"
"SaberDancer (England) :wait a sec"
(I had some problems with revolts, if I remember correctly)
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*get out of paris then"
(Not sure if this meant that he agrees or what, if he said I agree to WP with Austria, I would leave immediatly)
"March 6, 1776 : We have initiated a siege in Ile de France."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*this is no way to peace"
"SaberDancer (England) :i want you to sign peace with austria"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*for the 124978524985 time"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*if I do that, they will gang venice"
"SaberDancer (England) :*im trying to get peace with austria"
(Meaning not with Russia, so he can defend Venice against Russia, maybe I needed to clarify this but it was a little too quick for me (I am used to pause in SP
))"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*I wil lNOT take territory from AUS"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*why do you assault paris... just accept the bloody peace already"
"April 24, 1776 : We captured the province of Ile de France from France"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :for fucks sake, someone kick this stupid england"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :he will not accept peace even though I agreed to terms"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :he is just wanting to ruin my country"
"SaberDancer (England) :you have not"
"SaberDancer (England)
ne demand is immeadiate peace with Austria" "May 26, 1776 : We have initiated a siege in Champagne."
"SaberDancer (England) :England wants stable Europe"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :get a grip"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :you want my allies ganged"
"SaberDancer (England) :so if you accept that you sign peace, then it is a deal"
"June 10, 1776 : We have initiated a siege in Orleanais."
"Dr Bob (Spain) :hmm Spain also echoes this, France should peace austria"
"SaberDancer (England) :are there still limits on demands?"
"July 10, 1776 : We captured the province of Orleanais from France"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :yes"
"July 13, 1776 : We captured the province of Champagne from France"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :you already demanded the maximum on me in this lame backstab"
"August 5, 1776 : We have initiated a siege in Maine."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*last offer"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France)
k I have no intention to keep playing this way" "Ozzeh-no-Drop (France)
eople should be reasonable in peace" "SaberDancer (England)
lease pause" (I wanted to pause the game so we can discuss the terms)
"September 21, 1776 : We captured the province of Maine from France"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :he is destroying my country simply to avoid me from attacking him again later"
(I was trying to get him to sign peace I wanted)
"SaberDancer (England) :forzaa, please pause"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :im out of this for tonight, I have to cool down"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :sorry everyone"
"SaberDancer (England) :Ok"
"SaberDancer (England) :dont quit"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :I might say things I dont mean if I stay here"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) has left the game!"
"SaberDancer (England)
zzeh, stay please" "SaberDancer (England)
mfg" As you can see, it is maybe possible it was misunderstanding. But he never said explicitly he would sign WP with Austria. Should have I signed the peace with him without getting this straight? He could say he didn't agree to WP, so I insisted he says that. Also Dr. Bob echoed my demand in game, so I thought it wasn't unreasonable. And as I am aware, not one of the manufactories was burned. IMHO damage to your country was very small. I never said We have agreement (what Ozzeh claims I did). You did not make offers, no offers except St. Thomas and Picardie I said no to. You didn't say you want me to stop so we can discuss. In my opinion there was nothing to discuss. Also one thing to bear in mind, I thought that France and Venice peaced with Russia earlier. I thought I saw it on diplomatic screen. Obviously in the confusion of attack I saw something wrong.
I hope that this clarifies my side. Not sure if Ozzeh send PM to someone else, or if he thought he said something he didn't (like offering WP for all, or anything). All this seems like a big misunderstanding. Also I am aware now that WP with Austria could be not allowed by rules. I didn't remember this during the game..
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*starts the whining about Saber's post*
------------------------------------------------------
Notice the convenient 2,5 month between the original peace agreement and the demand for Austria WP. Also notice that though he put his intentions in bold between now, they are totally not clear. Also note that if he really wanted to allow me to remain fighting russia, he would've accepted my word just not to take austrian provs.
Also, a lot of stuff is missing. The stuff he ignored. I have two ways to prove this. First of all, at the time all I did was type against england and move exactly one army into austria (it can be confirmed by others that I wasn't doing much at that time). Yet, months pass. I'm sure everyone knows I type a lot faster than that. So there had to be more messages. Secondly, check this line:
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*last offer"
I PM'ed him the words: "last offer". Yet after that is a public statement in Saber's log. Why would I send a message announcing I was going to make a last offer when I would quit immediately after? Clearly, this offer of mine has been removed also.
-----------------------------------------
*stops whining*
Anyway, something COULD have gone wrong with the PMs, causing him not to receive them. Though I don't know what that could've been. I'm certain I sent to the right person though. I checked multiple times.
However, despite all the above, I'm willing to give Saber the benefit of the doubt and see this all as a misunderstanding. So let's forget it and end the discussion now.
------------------------------------------------------
Notice the convenient 2,5 month between the original peace agreement and the demand for Austria WP. Also notice that though he put his intentions in bold between now, they are totally not clear. Also note that if he really wanted to allow me to remain fighting russia, he would've accepted my word just not to take austrian provs.
Also, a lot of stuff is missing. The stuff he ignored. I have two ways to prove this. First of all, at the time all I did was type against england and move exactly one army into austria (it can be confirmed by others that I wasn't doing much at that time). Yet, months pass. I'm sure everyone knows I type a lot faster than that. So there had to be more messages. Secondly, check this line:
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*last offer"
I PM'ed him the words: "last offer". Yet after that is a public statement in Saber's log. Why would I send a message announcing I was going to make a last offer when I would quit immediately after? Clearly, this offer of mine has been removed also.
-----------------------------------------
*stops whining*
Anyway, something COULD have gone wrong with the PMs, causing him not to receive them. Though I don't know what that could've been. I'm certain I sent to the right person though. I checked multiple times.
However, despite all the above, I'm willing to give Saber the benefit of the doubt and see this all as a misunderstanding. So let's forget it and end the discussion now.
I remember when you sent me *last offer. You sent a peace offer with St. Thomas and Picardie and then you said last offer. I didn't accept only that and you left. Convenient 2.5 months is because I was loading an army onto a fleet, returning fleet from NA (I want to keep England secure) and sending it to St. Thomas so I can capture it.
I know now that my intention could have been not clear at the time (I see that now), but at the same time your intentions and offers are not any clearer. At least not to me.
Also, I am dissapointed if you believe I would go to such lengths (deleting lines that don't suit me) for just a game, a chill game.
If you want I can put the save online, so someone can verify if it hasn't been modified.
I know now that my intention could have been not clear at the time (I see that now), but at the same time your intentions and offers are not any clearer. At least not to me.
Also, I am dissapointed if you believe I would go to such lengths (deleting lines that don't suit me) for just a game, a chill game.
If you want I can put the save online, so someone can verify if it hasn't been modified.
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*demands england?"
"April 11, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Ile de France."
"SaberDancer (England) :*St. Thomas and Picardie"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*st thomas alone ?"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*picardie is national;"
"SaberDancer (England) :*no, and picardie"
"May 13, 1775 : Agricultural Revolution happened to us."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*ok fine... but take st thomas then"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*and stop aggression in france"
"June 7, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Bourgogne."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*please, I surrender to those demands"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*get your troops out"
"SaberDancer (England) : ok,"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*agreement is made"
How can you "ok" not be accepting the terms?
"April 11, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Ile de France."
"SaberDancer (England) :*St. Thomas and Picardie"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*st thomas alone ?"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*picardie is national;"
"SaberDancer (England) :*no, and picardie"
"May 13, 1775 : Agricultural Revolution happened to us."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*ok fine... but take st thomas then"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*and stop aggression in france"
"June 7, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Bourgogne."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*please, I surrender to those demands"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*get your troops out"
"SaberDancer (England) : ok,"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*agreement is made"
How can you "ok" not be accepting the terms?
Aladar said:
He said he was defeated and I should get my troops out, I said ok, I will.
But ok, I do not see the need for this argument. Obviously I cannot demand WP for Austria. I will think about other demands. Ozzeh you are free to contact me about peace. My ICQ is 99-527-659. Sorry about all this.
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*demands england?"
"April 11, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Ile de France."
"SaberDancer (England) :*St. Thomas and Picardie"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*st thomas alone ?"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*picardie is national;"
"SaberDancer (England) :*no, and picardie"
"May 13, 1775 : Agricultural Revolution happened to us."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*ok fine... but take st thomas then"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*and stop aggression in france"
"June 7, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Bourgogne."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*please, I surrender to those demands"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*get your troops out"
"SaberDancer (England) : ok,"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*agreement is made"
Serious, you can't say that you agreed to getting your troops out and nothing else. Agreeing to that only makes sense if you also agreed to take St. Thomas and Picardie.
If you didn't agree to all that, why take your troops out in the first place?
"April 11, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Ile de France."
"SaberDancer (England) :*St. Thomas and Picardie"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*st thomas alone ?"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*picardie is national;"
"SaberDancer (England) :*no, and picardie"
"May 13, 1775 : Agricultural Revolution happened to us."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*ok fine... but take st thomas then"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*and stop aggression in france"
"June 7, 1775 : We have initiated a siege in Bourgogne."
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*please, I surrender to those demands"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*get your troops out"
"SaberDancer (England) : ok,"
"Ozzeh-no-Drop (France) :*agreement is made"
Serious, you can't say that you agreed to getting your troops out and nothing else. Agreeing to that only makes sense if you also agreed to take St. Thomas and Picardie.
If you didn't agree to all that, why take your troops out in the first place?
Well, it could be a strange decision but I was confident that Ozzeh doesn't have the ability to fight back. So I decided I would retreat and negotiate. He now said in the thread he did have the ability to fight back (said something like 250k french troops against my 200k) which I doubt very much (I faced only one front, he had 2).
I suggest we stop with this "He said that, you said that, ...". Its done. I don't think its a big problem we finished 30 minutes before the time. I have learned something, and next time I will be more clear about my intentions.
I suggest we stop with this "He said that, you said that, ...". Its done. I don't think its a big problem we finished 30 minutes before the time. I have learned something, and next time I will be more clear about my intentions.
Saber,
I believe that you in your heart agreed to the deal. The fact you said "ok", regardless of this OK was for removing troops or about the peace as a whole, means you are now cooperating with your opponent to sort all this post-peace things out. The latter in practice means you have an agreement.
But then you changed your mind, or perhaps "remembered what you had aimed at in the 1st place", namely to make sure AUS was safe. So now you added this peace demand.
Now the question arises: can one do that? Well frankly, I see no formal reason why you could not. Until peace has been signed no one is bound by the suggested peace terms, IMO. Anything might happen before the treaty is actually signed, like SPA entering the war on either side (e.g. FRA's) and tilting the odds of the war etc. So I see no reason why you should not be allowed to change your mind. That also happens to mimic reality where of course no obligation to sign a peace treaty existed just because you agree to do it.
But if I changed my mind (and for no special reason, like the one I suggesteed above: a new nation entering the war) I would appreciate the fact that my opponent would be quite disappointed, to say the least. Thus I would try to sooth his feelings the best I could. I believe you failed hear. But for a newcomer this is no great sin. Even an oldtimer could do that mistake.
The only formal rule about honoring peace agreements I know of is that one must honor things agreed upon in the peace deal that in reality would have been done simultaneously but because of game quirks must be (or is) done sequentially (such as: if we peace you must also peace with nation Y). But in this case the two of you did not sign any peace deal. You had only decided to do it.
I believe that you in your heart agreed to the deal. The fact you said "ok", regardless of this OK was for removing troops or about the peace as a whole, means you are now cooperating with your opponent to sort all this post-peace things out. The latter in practice means you have an agreement.
But then you changed your mind, or perhaps "remembered what you had aimed at in the 1st place", namely to make sure AUS was safe. So now you added this peace demand.
Now the question arises: can one do that? Well frankly, I see no formal reason why you could not. Until peace has been signed no one is bound by the suggested peace terms, IMO. Anything might happen before the treaty is actually signed, like SPA entering the war on either side (e.g. FRA's) and tilting the odds of the war etc. So I see no reason why you should not be allowed to change your mind. That also happens to mimic reality where of course no obligation to sign a peace treaty existed just because you agree to do it.
But if I changed my mind (and for no special reason, like the one I suggesteed above: a new nation entering the war) I would appreciate the fact that my opponent would be quite disappointed, to say the least. Thus I would try to sooth his feelings the best I could. I believe you failed hear. But for a newcomer this is no great sin. Even an oldtimer could do that mistake.
The only formal rule about honoring peace agreements I know of is that one must honor things agreed upon in the peace deal that in reality would have been done simultaneously but because of game quirks must be (or is) done sequentially (such as: if we peace you must also peace with nation Y). But in this case the two of you did not sign any peace deal. You had only decided to do it.
Ozzeh said:
Is this evidence that you was in alliance with Poland or I'm crazy??? :rofl:
Look I really don't care if you was in secret alliance - it is ok imo...
Concerning England, Aladar introduced new rule with which it would be possible to ask for WP against 3rd party. It is completely normal thing in human society and this game. It happened in history many times and we all met bullies when we was children, then called for our older brother that came to tell them they shouldn't beat us anymore and so on...
I see no problem in that at all. Since my two older brothers (Spain and England) told you to stop beating me anymore you have to prove your strenght against them first and stop complaining coll or not :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Daniel A said:
You got it right. I agree with your post and your analasys. It is very close to what happened in my head and in the game.
I'm sorry if I caused confusion or frustration. Sorry Ozzeh.
I think that all of this got out of proportion.
Its done now. I'd like no more talk about this.
About the peace Saber, you can take St Thomas and Picardie for all I care. I'll even WP Austria too. Honestly, France is so ruined at the moment I don't think it will be able to do anything of note this game. Except for perhaps throw Nappy against some leaderless country.
About the peace Saber, you can take St Thomas and Picardie for all I care. I'll even WP Austria too. Honestly, France is so ruined at the moment I don't think it will be able to do anything of note this game. Except for perhaps throw Nappy against some leaderless country.
Daniel A said:
I agree with whole post but I have taken this out because I meddled here :rofl:
Saber told me on private channel that he bassicaly have some concept of peace with France and am I satisfied with it (since it was his first game he asked me a lot of things, much like I did with Ryo when I was in alliance with him) and I told him to wait untill France peaces with me or Austria is finished.
So it is my fault!!! Mea culpa and only thing I can tell in my defense that I had NO IDEA that should be problematic in this or any game because I did it many times in other games in both roles (as the imposter of WP against third country and as receiver of even victory because third party meddled in for my money). I have been watching that many times too (as neutral country). I belive new rules will straighten that out. More rules less misunderstandings. I usually read rules when I enter game and there was soo little of them I though I was entering chaos zone :rofl:
Chaos ensued though and I bet on my mouse it was because of lack of rules :rofl:
Ozzeh said:
Austria would like to offer its hand of friendship to France and offer to pay England large sum of money if it would like to sell Picardie to France so that only St. Thomas would become English. Also Austria is hoping for good future relations with France and forget their past misunderstandings.
England agrees with the proposed peace terms. England is sorry about the unnecesarry destruction.
St. Thomas and Picardie join the Brittish Empire
Picardie is sold to France on account of Austria for 1000 gold pieces
France signs White Peace with Austria
SaberDancer on behalf of England - signed
Ozzeh on behalf of France
Nabukodonosor on behalf of Austria
St. Thomas and Picardie join the Brittish Empire
Picardie is sold to France on account of Austria for 1000 gold pieces
France signs White Peace with Austria
SaberDancer on behalf of England - signed
Ozzeh on behalf of France
Nabukodonosor on behalf of Austria
SaberDancer said:
SaberDancer on behalf of England - signed
Nabukodonosor on behalf of Austria - signed
P.S. If France signs please edit 1000 gp to England from Austrian treasury.
I sure hope you can sort out that mess without thinking of devious edits to make
EDIT: ok, transferring 1000 ducats would be doable (if France has them anyway...
do send a reminder via ICQ, though
[as with all edit requests]
EDIT: ok, transferring 1000 ducats would be doable (if France has them anyway...
do send a reminder via ICQ, though
[as with all edit requests]
Ozzeh said:
*Looks anxiously at the Spanish leader file*
Awww crap
Nab said:
What all my money goes on paying England to help France? what the hell, I sent you that money so you could all keep being embroiled in a useless war.
Stupid foreigners :wacko: