• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tiax

Banned
42 Badges
Jun 7, 2007
2.521
16.093
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
Consider for example event child_personality.1012. In this event, the child you're educating has become lazy. You have three options:

-Let them keep lazy.
-Make them instead craven, at the cost of 30 stress.
-Make them instead arbitrary, at the cost of 30 stress.

This is (usually) not an interesting decision. The difference between three negative traits is pretty minimal. While you could construct situations in which one of the three is a deal-breaker, most of the time it doesn't matter. It's basically the same as if the child gained a random trait, but with the added annoyance of having to click to say I don't want stress.

Not every education decision is like this - some are a mix of good and bad traits, which can offer the more interesting decision of trading stress for a better trait. These suffer from the issue that when the child is already getting the good trait, the options to take stress to instead give a bad trait are even more meaningless.

Certainly we can't have a system in which every trait event lets you spend 30 stress for a good trait. That would mean that for 90 stress, your heir could always have 3 good traits. But we do want a system where each provided option is at least tempting.

One way to balance this might be to offer stress for the chance to get a better trait. If your child is turning out lazy, you could spend some stress for a shot at making them, say, diligent instead, but if you lose the ensuing coin-flip, you've spent stress for nothing. Another possibility is to offer stress relief for letting them get a bad trait - you look the other way on their behavior, and you get to relax instead. In addition to charging stress to the parent, the child could also be charged stress. It's a lot of work to break bad habits, or pick up skills you're not suited for!

It might be that this system is basically unchangeable - the file of child educated events is, unbelievably, 7500 lines long. If someone sat down and wrote all that out, it's probably too much work to change it. But if that's automatically generated (all the events are basically the same structure but with different sets of traits), it should be easy enough to revise.

In one of the early dev diaries, it was expressed that the goal was to make fewer no-brainer events. While this has been achieved in many areas, child education stands out as a failure point. A few simple changes (assuming they can be automated) would greatly enhance the experience by making all options viable.
 
  • 6Like
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:
Upvote 0

logros13

Sergeant
43 Badges
Jun 23, 2010
97
333
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • King Arthur II
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
This is (usually) not an interesting decision. The difference between three negative traits is pretty minimal. While you could construct situations in which one of the three is a deal-breaker, most of the time it doesn't matter. It's basically the same as if the child gained a random trait, but with the added annoyance of having to click to say I don't want stress.
Very strongly disagree with this, what personality traits you have can massively change how you play the game because of how it affects stress from events and actions, the personality traits are not only (or even mainly) about the modifiers. If you know how different personalities affect different actions and decisions this basically decides how you will play your next rulers entire life, so most definitely a meaningful and "interesting" decision.
 
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:

ChicagoZohan

First Lieutenant
63 Badges
Oct 11, 2016
241
313
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
Very strongly disagree with this, what personality traits you have can massively change how you play the game because of how it affects stress from events and actions, the personality traits are not only (or even mainly) about the modifiers. If you know how different personalities affect different actions and decisions this basically decides how you will play your next rulers entire life, so most definitely a meaningful and "interesting" decision.
The prisoner event highlights this better. You've got Compassionate, Sadistic, and Callous on the table. None of those traits is "good" or "bad" but they all change the way you play radically.

Meanwhile I hate the Feast event where you get Shy and can spend stress to get Impatient or Gluttonous. Talk about three crappy options... shy is horrendous but spending stress to gain either of the other two crappy traits seems even worse
 

The FinitePotato

Corporal
May 28, 2017
28
76
Meanwhile I hate the Feast event where you get Shy and can spend stress to get Impatient or Gluttonous. Talk about three crappy options... shy is horrendous but spending stress to gain either of the other two crappy traits seems even worse
I think the idea behind this logic is "your child got a bad trait, which one did they get?" There absolutely needs to be a mechanic that puts bad traits onto characters, even ones you're educating, and, as is, I think this one works pretty well
 

Tiax

Banned
42 Badges
Jun 7, 2007
2.521
16.093
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
Very strongly disagree with this, what personality traits you have can massively change how you play the game because of how it affects stress from events and actions, the personality traits are not only (or even mainly) about the modifiers. If you know how different personalities affect different actions and decisions this basically decides how you will play your next rulers entire life, so most definitely a meaningful and "interesting" decision.
Perhaps I'm just underappreciating the differences between the traits. But I haven't felt that, for example, lazy vs arbitrary makes a big difference in how I play a character. There are obvious exceptions, like shy or sadistic, and obviously sins and virtues make a big difference from piety alone. It just seems to me like there are a good number of traits that are mostly interchangeable.

It looks like people mostly disagree with me about that assessment, so it's probably just a case of me not understanding all the implications.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Smiles_

Captain
55 Badges
Apr 11, 2016
386
540
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Prison Architect
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
I think the game does lack some nuance -- but honestly that is expected from an initial paradox release, since so many things get fleshed out with DLC. I'm sure things will look different a year or more from now...
 

Meg2345

Second Lieutenant
6 Badges
May 23, 2019
158
436
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings III
I think the game does lack some nuance -- but honestly that is expected from an initial paradox release, since so many things get fleshed out with DLC. I'm sure things will look different a year or more from now...
I'm also hoping education will be expanded and have more variety in the future. I've gotten very bored with educating my heirs as I keep getting the same few events/trait options over and over. In a way I think It's more interesting to send them to someone else to educate and just deal with how they are when they get back. On the other hand I'm a bit of a control freak so I hate to let them go and have them come back craven, shy and gluttonous!!!
 

The Founder

Field Marshal
55 Badges
Mar 13, 2013
13.053
3.162
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Major Wiki Contributor
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Ancient Space
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars Pre-Order
  • Imperator: Rome
-Let them keep lazy.
-Make them instead craven, at the cost of 30 stress.
-Make them instead arbitrary, at the cost of 30 stress.
The 3 traits could not be more different:
- Lazy is a direct opposite (and locks out) Dilligent. With a broad Skill penalty, but passive stress reduction.
- Craven is the opposite of Brave. It only penalizes martial and prowess. But it is also a sin in many religions.
- Arbitrary is the opposite of just. Bad for Stewardship and learning, but great for Intrigue, Dread and Stress reduction.

All 3 - and their counterparts - have massive impacts on stress gain and suiteable Education for a character. Not every choice will be meaningfull for every character, but most are meaningfull for most. That is all this needs to be.