• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Thistletooth

Field Marshal
39 Badges
Dec 19, 2003
5.429
25
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
What's your take on the man?

Was he a talented general? A paranoid leader? A terrible manager of his country's bureaucracy? Was he seen as inspiring by his followers, or by the Chinese in general (not in the end, I know, but ever)?

Was he a victim of the Peter Principle: that he was ruthless and shrewd enough to work his way up the ranks, but finally ended up in a position he was wholly unprepared for? Was he an effective dictator in peacetime, but insufficient in war?

Was he a fool for losing China? Did he have a chance to keep it, given the state of Chinese politics both before and after the Second Sino-Japanese War? Or was he smart, but just unlucky?

How would you rate his handling of things militarily - both before the War (Northern Expedition, campaign against Mao), during the War, and after it? Does it reflect the actions of a competant leader, or a bumbler?
 

unmerged(10262)

Tortoise of the Record Bureau
Jul 18, 2002
1.066
0
Visit site
He was a competent military leader but is ultimately the only one responsible for transforming KMT from a radical organisation that was a very positive force in China to his own corrupt military dictatorship.
 

Hulaoguan

Major
Jun 8, 2003
548
0
Visit site
My view is that even though he is undeniably cabable, China is a bit too large for him to handle.
 

Arilou

Irken Tallest
102 Badges
Aug 24, 2002
8.180
688
Visit site
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • King Arthur II
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
He obviously had his areas of competence, he managed to somewhat subdue the Warlords after all (seems to me that in many ways he turned China into a semi-feudal structure, or maybe it always was, and that he never really managed to put the apparatus of state under his own control) I think that, even had he beaten Mao in the Civil War, his position in China would have been very weak. We might have been looking at a situation like in many African countries, with rival warlords more or less running the place under a central government with little or no influence, that or a complete breakdown....
 

unmerged(5110)

Field Marshal
Jul 29, 2001
4.432
0
tse.dyndns.org
I think that Chiang Kai-shek was a superb and shrewd politician, but a poor military leader and a poor statesman.

Chiang Kai-shek had the ability to politically maneuver his way out of most engagements, even though for a great deal of the time the forces personally loyal to him were quite small. It was through his combination of combining with the right people at the right time (the Communists/Leftists during the Northern Expedition, who conquered quite a large amount in their own right), and stabbing them in the back when he needed to (the subsequent massacre of the Communists and abandonment of said Leftists) that led him to political ascendancy.

The problem was that his dependence on absolute loyalty, and the situation in China at that time (with a bunch of warlords, nobody is completely loyal to each other) made it very easy for Chiang to take power but very difficult to *retain* it.

By the end of the Northern Expedition, a great deal of warlords preferred to join Chiang in an alliance -- more out of their own survival than any loyalty to a large Chinese nation, IMHO. This led to a Nationalist Chinese army that was not entirely loyal to its commander-in-chief or Generalissimo. Chiang was understandably paranoid - even though he could be considered the strongest faction, the warlords, if they felt threatened, could easily ally up and overpower Chiang.

Subsequently, Chiang used his superb political skills to pit one warlord against another, bribe warlords to lay down their arms and opportune times, and delay the Japanese enroachment to the north long enough to build up his army. A substantial portion of China's budget was dedicated to such bribes. Chiang's plans were to slowly consolidate real power in China proper by isolating the warlords, taking their territory and replacing them with cronies -- all without the warlords as a collective taking too much notice and ganging up on him.

By 1937, when the Marco Polo Bridge Incident occured, he was well on his way to accomplishing this - large parts of Sichuan, Guangdong were subdued, and he had obtained the loyalty of the Xibei San Ma... during the 2nd Sino-Japanese war (in Chinese known as the 'Resisting the Japanese War'), he had further obtained Xinjiang, consolidated his hold in Sichuan and at the end of the war, moved into Yunnan to force the warlord there to surrender.

IMHO, it was a politically (in the Machivellian/Stalin/Backstabbing sense) sound strategy, but it looked like an awful unpatriotic mess to the public, and boy did both the Communists and Warlords use that propoganda to their utmost advantage. The biggest downfall of the policy was that, in order to focus on subduing these warlords, Chiang had to buy off the Japanese for time while he focused on his internal enemies. He bought them off with land -- first Manchuria, then Rehe and Jehol -- finally, by 1936, people were so fed up with him that when he went to Xi'an to try to get the warlords there under his control (allegedly) to fight the Communists, they kidnapped him instead and tried to force him to fight the Japanese.

The second biggest disadvantage of Chiang's particular blend of strengths/weaknesses was that, it was undeniable that some of the warlords were actually pretty talented militarily -- the Xibei San Ma generals themselves were able to wipe out a major part of the Communists' fighting forces in March '36. But Chiang didn't trust them. Chiang trusted in generals that were personally loyal to him (known as the Whampoa Clique) who, in some cases were nowhere near as talented.

This led to the case where, during the 2nd Sino-Japanese war, some of China's best generals were severely hampered from really performing their best. China's greatest victories of Taierzhuang, and the defenses of Changsha were all masterminded by warlords, but, because of bickering amongst both the warlords and Chiang could not seize the initiative and expand these victories. In addition, Chiang didn't trust even the lower-level officers under his command and gave individual brigades orders as to what to do.

I could talk volumes more about Chiang, who, IMHO, was a man in a very difficult position... if I were in his shoes, I would be hard-pressed not to choose the same strategy as he did.
 

AllThat4Nothing

There are FOUR LIGHTS!
32 Badges
Jul 20, 2005
2.888
529
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Diplomacy
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Chiang was a petty warlord who was none too wise and even during the war against Japan was still more concerned with crushing Mao (who was terrible in his own right...). The west only favored Chiang because he was democratic (at least on paper...).

Chiang was nothing special.


EDIT: Hard circumstances or not, he handled things quite poorly.
 

Thistletooth

Field Marshal
39 Badges
Dec 19, 2003
5.429
25
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
AllThat4Nothing said:
Chiang was a petty warlord who was none too wise and even during the war against Japan was still more concerned with crushing Mao (who was terrible in his own right...). The west only favored Chiang because he was democratic (at least on paper...).

I believe the word you were going for is "non-communist". There was nothing democratic about the guy, not even on paper.

But he hated him some commies, and that's what went over so well with the West. :)
 

Hulaoguan

Major
Jun 8, 2003
548
0
Visit site
XieChengnuo said:
The second biggest disadvantage of Chiang's particular blend of strengths/weaknesses was that, it was undeniable that some of the warlords were actually pretty talented militarily -- the Xibei San Ma generals themselves were able to wipe out a major part of the Communists' fighting forces in March '36. But Chiang didn't trust them. Chiang trusted in generals that were personally loyal to him (known as the Whampoa Clique) who, in some cases were nowhere near as talented.

This led to the case where, during the 2nd Sino-Japanese war, some of China's best generals were severely hampered from really performing their best. China's greatest victories of Taierzhuang, and the defenses of Changsha were all masterminded by warlords, but, because of bickering amongst both the warlords and Chiang could not seize the initiative and expand these victories. In addition, Chiang didn't trust even the lower-level officers under his command and gave individual brigades orders as to what to do.

Good analysis there. I especially agree with the points about Chiang not trusting his own better generals, especially those who have a warlord background. He also tended to favour some very mediocre types.

For example, I never understood his trust in Chen Cheng. This general was given big responsibilities ( overseeing the 5th encirclement campaign against the CCP that led to the Long March, the Battle of Shanghai in 1937-38, the Battle of Liao-Shen in 1947). In fact, he later became Chiang's vice president on Taiwan. But he is mediocre at best in his conduct of military campaigns, and he lost most of them.

Same for He Yinqing, who rose to the post of defence minister. Oddly, Chiang trusted him even though he was pro Japanese!

I have conflicting info on Chiang's relation with Xue Yue ( the victor of the 1st and 2nd Battle for Changsha against the Japanese), but I dont think he was trusted completely too. Same for Sun Li Ren ( who fought well in the Burma theatre) and Wei Li Huang ( the Japanese called Wei a China tiger general). And of course he never trusted Li Zhong Ren and Bai Chong Si, the pair of Guangxi warlords who won the Battle of Taierzhuang but who had rebelled against his rule in the past.

Chiang also have no noted civilian advisor with the calibre of Zhou Enlai.
 
Last edited:

Arilou

Irken Tallest
102 Badges
Aug 24, 2002
8.180
688
Visit site
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • King Arthur II
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
I think the problem is that there really was no good choice for Chiang: Either prioritze competence over trust and be certain of being overthrown later on, or prioritize trust over competency and have lacklustre success in the war.

He chose the latter.
 

Fornadan

Lt. General
71 Badges
Jan 10, 2004
1.306
42
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Impire
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Sorry for some slight highjacking, but how can the pinyin transliteration of his name be Jiang Jieshi? :confused:

The second name doesn't look similar at all
 

Thistletooth

Field Marshal
39 Badges
Dec 19, 2003
5.429
25
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
Fornadan said:
Sorry for some slight highjacking, but how can the pinyin transliteration of his name be Jiang Jieshi? :confused:

The second name doesn't look similar at all

Jieshi may be the Mandarin spelling/pronounciation, while Kai-Shek would be Cantonese.

Not 100% certain of that, though.
 

unmerged(44784)

Who is John Galt?
May 28, 2005
4.238
0
Things would've been much better if Chiang had won the Chinese Civil War. The problem was that the communists had more direct support from the Soviet Union, while the nationalists recieved only limited support from the United States. Truman dropped the ball.
 

Hulaoguan

Major
Jun 8, 2003
548
0
Visit site
Thistletooth said:
Jieshi may be the Mandarin spelling/pronounciation, while Kai-Shek would be Cantonese.

Not 100% certain of that, though.

It's either Cantonese or Zhejiang dialect. (Chiang was from the province of Zhejiang ). I have noticed that Wade Giles system tends to follow he dialect redition of the person's name rather than mandarin.
 

unmerged(5110)

Field Marshal
Jul 29, 2001
4.432
0
tse.dyndns.org
Earth's Savior said:
Things would've been much better if Chiang had won the Chinese Civil War. The problem was that the communists had more direct support from the Soviet Union, while the nationalists recieved only limited support from the United States. Truman dropped the ball.

I beg to differ with you here, and I think at the time, the people of China would disagree with you as well. Chiang's policies, well, government policies in general, reeked of corruption, inefficiency, top-heaviness, and worst of all, social injustice. The peasants often felt mistreated by the landowners, and in this warlord times, political power very much grew out of the barrel of a gun.

The caveat here is that the landowners were not necessarily rich people squabbling their wealth, a lot of them too were little better than the peasants who worked their land). Some landowners and village elders, however, had powerful allies - the warlords, or those in bureaucracy who helped to maintain the corrupt power structure. This, compounded by the war, the peoples' mistreatment at the hands of the Japanese AND the Nationalists (40% of conscriptees died before even reaching the front lines) and the hyper-inflation at the end of the war all made the people very critical of the Nationalist regime. Responsibility for all of these problems, could and did squarely fall right into the lap of Chiang Kai-shek, whose cronyism exacerbated these types of issues considerably.

Now not saying that Chiang Kai-shek did things just for the sake of hurting his people, Chiang actually cared about his people very much, but under the rules of the time, the Warlordism had to go first - which meant that political power and political loyalty outweighed fighting ability, outweighed governing ability, and outweighed national sovereignty. And so Chiang's reluctance to fight the Japanese when they (in the eyes of Chinese) blatantly invaded parts of China, only encouraged the Japanese to be even more blatant.

And that's just the start of it. I actually disagree with the statement that a poster made that Nationalist China was weakened by the Sino-Japanese war. I'd make the case that she was strengthened. Considerably.

In '42, the USA, the Juggernaut of the modern world, stepped in to help Chiang stay in the war whatever way they could. Even as Soviet trucks fed China from the northwest, US airplanes were shipping in crates and crates of military materiel and, better than Chiang's greatest hopes, the US was creating divisions of Chinese troops trained to be completely loyal to him.

Basically when the US entered the war, Chiang decided to lay back and not fight the Japanese. After all, they were as good as dead. The bigger war lay with the Communists.

By the end of the war, Chiang had the diplomatic support of the US, they had a large army with a core of combat veterans (I believe Stilwell made a quote that at the beginning, the 10 Chinese would be defeated by 1 Japanese, but by war's end, it was the other way around, in reference to the American-trained Chinese divisions in Burma), military arms from the US and a national indemnity that had been stripped from the books (in thanks for China's participation on the Allied side, UK and USA and FRA forgave the debt that China had owed them for losing the Boxer Rebellion).

And as I mentioned during the war, Chiang still made efforts to eliminate the warlords, which he actually managed to do.

But because of his policies, and his cronyism, all of that came to nought during the Chinese Civil War. It's my humble opinion (and as always, people are free to disagree with me), that the Communists didn't win the civil war so much as the Nationalists lost it. Chiang and his Whampoa clique managed to make all the wrong moves at the wrong times.
 

unmerged(57215)

First Citizen
May 20, 2006
324
0
XieChengnuo said:
Basically when the US entered the war, Chiang decided to lay back and not fight the Japanese. After all, they were as good as dead. The bigger war lay with the Communists.

That doesn't entirely make sense as the communists and nationalists didn't actuall resume hostilities until after the war. I mean, that famous photo of Chiang and Mao toasting victory over Japan is from 1945, isn't it?

Personally, I believe that, had Chiang Kai-Shek won the war, China, with all it's people, land, and natural resources, would've been able to modernize swiftly and dominate asia economically. The difficulty with the communist Chinese policy, up until just recently, was that they insisted on micromanaging everything top-down, which, on a scale of over a billion people, is flatly impossible. China, as you all know, is allowing for capitalism to occur on a greater scale, which is the reason for it's fast-paced economic growth, but the fact remains that China, being the most populous nation on the planet, has an economy roughly twice the size of Canada's, that is to say that 1.6 billion people have the same sized economy as a developed nation with 64 million. Had Chiang won, I believe China would've outpaced the USA entirely decades ago as the number one power.
 

Arilou

Irken Tallest
102 Badges
Aug 24, 2002
8.180
688
Visit site
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • King Arthur II
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
ersonally, I believe that, had Chiang Kai-Shek won the war, China, with all it's people, land, and natural resources, would've been able to modernize swiftly and dominate asia economically.

I'm not certain of that. Look at how quickly Chiang's regime collapsed against the communists. Yeah, in the best-case Scenario China becomes another South Korea. In the worst-case it becomes another Congo, with constant low-level civil war punctuated by bursts of vicious fighting, a weak central government and a fragile economy.
 

unmerged(10262)

Tortoise of the Record Bureau
Jul 18, 2002
1.066
0
Visit site
A fitting example how China would have fared with Nationalist victory (obviously) I guess is Taiwan, in other words quite terribly the first twenty years but then gradualy if reciving generous US support quite well after a while.
 

unmerged(5110)

Field Marshal
Jul 29, 2001
4.432
0
tse.dyndns.org
Steevo said:
That doesn't entirely make sense as the communists and nationalists didn't actuall resume hostilities until after the war. I mean, that famous photo of Chiang and Mao toasting victory over Japan is from 1945, isn't it?

Appearances can be deceiving. After all, wasn't there a picture of Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin in the Yalta conference? Just because they're all laughing in that picture doesn't make them the best of friends.

Basically, counter to their interests elsewhere, the United States was actually quite partial to the Communist regime in China at the beginning. They felt that the Nationalists were poorly managed, filled with cronyism, and corrupt to the brim. On the contrast, their view of the Communists was a clean grassroots organization with the support of the people (it was as a result of a certain American mission to Yan'an whose name eludes me right now).

Vinegar Joe, IMHO a very competent leader (some authors actually consider him the best American general!), had little or no understanding of Chinese politics, and refused to let it get in the way of his views. He consistently fought with Chiang over things like why Chiang put *half a million* troops to blockade his ostensible allies, the Communists, instead of using those troops to fight the Japanese. Now, reading my posts from before will give you a good idea of why exactly Chiang did that (and I would argue, with good reason too, because the Communists took every opportunity to fill power vaccuums left by the Nationalists), but from a purely military standpoint, it was grossly inefficient, and, frankly, seemed like Chiang was cutting his nose to spite his face.

By the end of the Sino-Japanese war, the Americans knew that Chiang was losing the support of the people, and fast. And the Communists were becoming more and more popular. The reasons that the Communists were able to outgovern the Nationalist were many-fold, but I'll continue this as part of addressing your next point.

Personally, I believe that, had Chiang Kai-Shek won the war, China, with all it's people, land, and natural resources, would've been able to modernize swiftly and dominate asia economically. The difficulty with the communist Chinese policy, up until just recently, was that they insisted on micromanaging everything top-down, which, on a scale of over a billion people, is flatly impossible. China, as you all know, is allowing for capitalism to occur on a greater scale, which is the reason for it's fast-paced economic growth, but the fact remains that China, being the most populous nation on the planet, has an economy roughly twice the size of Canada's, that is to say that 1.6 billion people have the same sized economy as a developed nation with 64 million. Had Chiang won, I believe China would've outpaced the USA entirely decades ago as the number one power.

The problem again was that Chiang had to play a careful power-balance between all the warlords - even if he had won the Civil War, it would most certainly have been on the backs of some powerful warlords -- heck, even some of Chiang's loyal generals had 'cliques' of their own. Say Chiang got an overwhelming victory and somehow managed to destroy every last Communist. There's still a huge amount of popular dissent going around and China's infrastructure not only sucks at this point, but it's been damaged by 30-some years of continual warfare.

Another problem facing the Nationalists was the power structure. I mentioned the village leaders, landlords and local warlords who, on a small scale, basically ruled rural China. Sure these leaders and warlords paid lip-service to Chiang, but basically they could loot and plunder their people as they pleased - Chiang's government was in no position to really contest this, as the government structure wasn't strong, infrstructure wasn't good, and many of these people also provided the Nationalists with support. Plus, corruption is difficult to uncover.

The Communist solution was brutal and simple. Kill all the landlords, all the warlords, expropriate their land and distribute it amongst the peasants. This makes the peasants really happy, but if the Nationalists did it, it would be political suicide. In addition, killing lots of people isn't really a cool thing to do. Many warlords (for obvious reasons) and Nationalists really opposed the Communists for this reason. Now by the civil war, this type of behaviour was toned down greatly but the reputation of the Communists among the people was pretty big.

Another thing is that, a country's economic development is NOT a simple thing. People may point to Taiwan as an example of development done right, but it is one of the "East Asian Tigers", a special case, and to this day economic development agencies like the IMF are trying to replicate their successes (this is actually a whole other thread topic). One thing, though is that the USA and the western world pumped in funds to these land-poor manpower-rich countries, which helped them develop a lot. It's one thing to develop a place like Hong Kong (small, compact, lots of people, generally homogenous environment), and quite another to develop a massive country that had just lurched out of a civil war like China.

Also, Taiwan was much freer of the burdens that plagued mainland Chinese politics. So Chiang had a freer hand to try out some measures to improve his country, and on a much smaller scale.

One other factor that I'd like to note, is that China is, at least at the moment, found to be quite resource-poor. USA is, as I said the Juggernaut of the world, and this is no accident by any means. USA is actually a really rich country - grain in the middle, lots of nice iron and coal deposits, lots of minerals, oil in the south, fruits and vegetables in the temperate regions, and a big population. The USA is really quite blessed with all these things (By similar account look at how much land the Soviet Union had and it could only at best compete with the USA in resources). China on the other hand, because of its recent development has had to import all of these resources like oil, metals, etc. from abroad and because of this sudden mass importation, prices of these commodities are going up.

The Nationalists also dealt very much with a top-down bureaucracy -- it was difficult to meddle in the local affairs -- people are more likely to listen to the village elder than any government official who just arrived from halfway across the country (remember Chiang's policy of only picking those loyal to him). At least the Communists had local support.

Going back to these corrupt local warlords and village leaders -- I am almost 99% certain that Communist China, in the civil war no longer had its policy of killing the landlords, but most likely kept existing power structures (I'd surmise these local power structures were overseen by local party cadres). I'm kind of speculating here so feel free to correct me. If you guys are following my line of thought, that means that the corruption that was endemic throughout the Nationalist era under Chiang would have *persisted* under the Communists, do you agree?

In fact, you can see right now in modern-day China this fact rearing its ugly head. The corruption in Communist China is mainly on the local level. I think Chiang would have had actually quite a similar problem, if not worse. Perhaps being forced to retreat to Taiwan could have been one of the good things to happen to him.