Cheesy / Gamey play with upgrades / variants?

[RupertTheBear]

Hi, quick question (which can probably only be answered by a dev, but hey..):

IIRC, there's a new tank model every 2 years (meaning you should research them by that speed).

Also IIRC, the devs stated that a fully upgraded model (5 tiers of upgrade?) slightly outperforms the next available model - so for example a PzIII with full upgrades is better than the newly researched PzIV. Now I can't remember any info about upgrades costing anything but XP, and I definitely didn't hear anything about them costing less XP the older the model is.

So, in theory it should be possible to research a, say, 1941 model (with a bit of a penalty) in 1940, save up a whole load of xp, and then drop that into the new model and voilà, you can build a ~1943 variant of a 1941 model at the end of 1940.

Am I getting this right, or am I missing something?

Also, another question: since all vehicles have variants and upgrades, but infantry doesn't, does this mean that infantry gets weaker vs. tanks the longer the tanks are being used (or rather, the more they are upgraded)? Or can we also upgrade infantry equipment?

Thank you for your attention

 

[LordOfWar16]

Infantry has 3 (technicly 4) tiers of weapons. Basic (what you start with), Tier 1, Tier 2 and Tier 3. Between each tier you can research an "improved weapon 1/2/3" tech, which buffs the current tier. Besides that you can also research anti-tank weapons upgrades, which increase the piercing of your infantry. Support battalions of at-guns help out aswell of course.

Sure you could tech rush something if you really wanted, but you need to keep in mind that newly researched stuff is very expensive and can only be produced in small quantities initially. If you keep building PzIII from 1938 for example you might be better of improving that model to extend its lifetime and only lose 50% of your production gearing efficiency, rather than starting at 0% again.

Other than that newer models require more resources and take longer to produce of course and you can only store 500 experience each, which doesnt allow you to upgrade tanks in one single go. Besides that if you need something with more punch against enemy tanks you could of course research the tank destroyer variant, which should be cheaper to produce and starts with 50% aswell and can be upgraded with the variant system aswell.

 

[Daddl]

How much XP you need to fully upgrade a tank variant is certainly subject to change, but yes, it should be possible to do so. I don't see the gamey play however. If you research ahead of time, you gain your tank earlier, but it blocks other research longer than necessary. If you use all your XP in making a variant, you may have good tanks, but all your other troops won't be as good for a while.

So you trade obvious advantages for obvious disadvantages, and thats normal gameplay, not gamey.

If this is a good idea or not largely depends on how much XP you gain and how much a variant costs. If thats acceptable this definetely is a good tactic.

 

[TheOrangeGuy]

How much XP you need to fully upgrade a tank variant is certainly subject to change, but yes, it should be possible to do so. I don't see the gamey play however. If you research ahead of time, you gain your tank earlier, but it blocks other research longer than necessary. If you use all your XP in making a variant, you may have good tanks, but all your other troops won't be as good for a while.

So you trade obvious advantages for obvious disadvantages, and thats normal gameplay, not gamey.

If this is a good idea or not largely depends on how much XP you gain and how much a variant costs. If thats acceptable this definetely is a good tactic.

I will definitely try to rush pz4 or something like that, then instantly upgrade all except gun. I'm pretty sure the AI won't do the same, so the extra piercing is not needed. Will be interesting to see if it works out or not. You can upgrade the gun later when it's needed, or maybe switch to panthers

 

[Daddl]

You can upgrade the gun later when it's needed, or maybe switch to panthers

If you upgrade a variant, didn't that reset the production efficiency as well, no matter how much you modified? Not completely like a new model, but by half at least if I remember correctly. I'd say thats not worth it "just" for better guns when you could switch to an overall better new model instead.

 

[LordOfWar16]

If you upgrade a variant, didn't that reset the production efficiency as well, no matter how much you modified? Not completely like a new model, but by half at least if I remember correctly. I'd say thats not worth it "just" for better guns when you could switch to an overall better new model instead.

its 25% loss for an variant of the tank an 50% loss for an variant of the chassis (TD/SPG/SPAA) and an 75% loss for switching within the same category (medium tank, etc). With the "flexible production" industry technology at the end you will only loose 50%. The other option (mutualy exclusive of course) "streamlined production" is an 25% faster gain in efficiency. With flexible production you would drop to 75% if you switched to a upgraded model of the same tank, for example.

If you change to a modified version of the same equipment (for example, the same tank but with a larger gun) you keep most of your Efficiency. If you switch to another variant of the same chassis (e.g. you switch from Pz IIIs to StuG IIIs) you keep half your Efficiency. And if you switch within the same family (e.g. Basic Medium Tank to Improved Medium Tank) you keep a small part of your Efficiency.

 

[TheOrangeGuy]

If you upgrade a variant, didn't that reset the production efficiency as well, no matter how much you modified? Not completely like a new model, but by half at least if I remember correctly. I'd say thats not worth it "just" for better guns when you could switch to an overall better new model instead.

That's true, but it's hard to know what's worth it and not, like other have mentioned with 100% efficiency maybe you make 100pz4 a month, but only 70panthers. Numbers are just guessing though

 

[LordOfWar16]

That's true, but it's hard to know what's worth it and not, like other have mentioned with 100% efficiency maybe you make 100pz4 a month, but only 70panthers. Numbers are just guessing though

efficiency determins how much you get out of your production of course. Different equipment costs different amount of production. An Panzer IV costs less than an upgunned variant or an Panther of course. You can actually see that by looking at the "production cost" stat. You can also see it when they select equipment for the production line. Its the yellow number beside the little green icon with the wrench inside.

• A Infantry Equipment 2 costs 0.75
• A Support Equipment costs 4
• A Leopard (LT) costs 10
• A Tiger 1 (HT) costs 27
• A BF110 Heavy Figther costs 28
• A Bismarck class battleship costs 16400 production

A factory outputs 5 production at peak efficiency a day and you are at 50% efficiency with your full (15 factories) production line. Factory output is influenced by technology aswell of course and not only by Production Line gearing efficiency. It should be noted that ships dont have an gearing bonus.

Factory Output = 5/day
Gearing Efficiency = 50% (0,5)
Effective Factory Output = 2,5/day
Total Output of an full Production Line (15 factories at 50%) = 37,5 (75 at 100%)

5*0,5=2,5 2,5*15=37,5
37,5/0,75=50/day__________Weapons 2
37,5/4=9,38/day___________Support Equipment.
37,5/28=1,34/day__________BF 110.
37,5/10=3,75/day__________Leopard light tanks
37,5/27=1,39/day__________Tiger I
75/16400=1,67/year_______Bismarck class Battleships.

At 100% efficiency you would build 2x amount a day of course. If you produce something that requires 3 resources and you lack 1 of them, the production will drop by 1/3, if you lack 2 by 2/3 and if you lack all of them production will stop entirely.

 

[Jazumir]

Can we have an option, that replaces a lot of these numbers with words or more vague ranges of numbers?
Post #2, 2nd picture (thx for those, LordOfWar16):
Time to Reserach: 3 to 4 months
Effects: All Inf. & mot./mech - Significant increase to hard attack and vastly superior armor piercing.

Reasoning:
1. Additional human-only difficulty, leveling the playing field a bit between AI and human players.
2. Feels more immersive and less of a min/max problem.

 

[LordOfWar16]

@Jazumir I want to know what i am researching and what i get from it tho. An option to hide the modifiers is an setback and not really an improvement. It would add frustration to the game, not really difficulty, but if you really want it you could turn off the tooltips and modify the research tab to not show the values for sure.

 

[kviiri]

Hiding actual numbers behind verbal descriptors is both easier and harder for humans. Harder because you get less precise readings, easier because you don't need to know the scale in advance to interpret it. (example: if you had no idea about the stats, you wouldn't know whether, say 40 is a good value. But if it's verbal, say "good", you know it's one of the better ones)

 

[GermanPower]

Well my question is how many upgrades does it take to the top? If its two thats sore by my standards. But On the stream I watched dumbfounded as Daniel sat there just letting XP go to waste. I assume with someone of my play style constantly upgrading my tank won't be done in two upgrades. It will be slowly upgrading it for most effective fighting force possible. So 4 or 5 variants. Which I guess reflects the attitude of the player and kinda works perfectly to par with real industry at the time. I'm more tinkery like Germany. Less like the US with drastic changes every year or two.
(I had a good thought. When producing it'd be a good idea that when producing a new upgraded model the rate at which you regain efficiency is doubled until you reach a certain point)

Since this is about upgrading and talking about cheesy gameplay I figure this would be ontopic to ask. When you build say 300 Panzer III I do hope you can't upgrade them to Panzer IVs. I hope its kept as a older model and slowly phased into the reserves or converted...less of a question..more of a question is this right.

Secondly when it comes to gun upgrades and chassis upgrades I'm curious if once you've done a major one if it's impossible to upgrade say a Panzer III with its turret to a more advanced different turret all together or a slightly wider chassis or something along those lines..My question being will you always be able to upgrade them to the latest model for example Panzer III to a Panzer IIIJ ?

To me it'd make sense at some point in upgrading became conversion. It's not attaching a few bolts at a time its entirely converting a tank. Think of a 1940s Panzer to a 1942...totally different tanks. It was a conversion, not a single change and I can see the abuse of production efficiency if you can get half the upgrades at a time instead of a natural progression. Saving 25% as the person above listed. When the reality is the marked change is a totally different manner of production. Building a 75 mm HE nub nosed gun is a lot different from a 75 mm High Velocity Gun. I would think you have to pay a large efficiency fee for that.

Maybe the extent of the upgrade should be tied to the loss of efficiency. Meaning adding on a slightly beefed up engine is only 5% while adding a totally new turret is 25%. + I had a good thought. When producing it'd be a good idea that when producing a new upgraded model the rate at which you regain efficiency is doubled until you reach a certain point
Would add a lot to the incentive of a player to actually use upgrades while also making it more realistic imo.
Not sit there for years on end never ever upgrading a tank because of loss of production is so harsh.

 

[Jazumir]

LoW16: Well, that doesnt make any sense. Sorry. I am not saying you should not be able to play this game with hundreads of numbers being thrown at you, that basically makes you a fortune teller. If you want that, i am all okay with it.

However, i do think that limiting the accuracy of info given to the player is one of the best ways to implement difficulty options. I´d favor these over +x%/-y% modifiers any day. Disabling the tooltips entirely is not a design option for a game that explains itself (including mechanics) by the use of them, though.

I mean, on one hand, one of the design philosophies for HoI4 is to prevent use of hindsight. And then the tooltips provide exactly that. Sure, if i am researching a new gun, i´ll know roughly how long that would take and i´d also know what i want from it. But one would never be able to tell that the work on researching that be done on wednesday, 4th of august, 1am. Nor would i know exactly how much better that gun will be when i have research on it started. Knowing these things with 100% accuracy beforehand is hindsight provided by the game itself, pure and simple.

 

[GermanPower]

LoW16: Well, that doesnt make any sense. Sorry. I am not saying you should not be able to play this game with hundreads of numbers being thrown at you, that basically makes you a fortune teller. If you want that, i am all okay with it.

However, i do think that limiting the accuracy of info given to the player is one of the best ways to implement difficulty options. I´d favor these over +x%/-y% modifiers any day. Disabling the tooltips entirely is not a design option for a game that explains itself (including mechanics) by the use of them, though.

I mean, on one hand, one of the design philosophies for HoI4 is to prevent use of hindsight. And then the tooltips provide exactly that. Sure, if i am researching a new gun, i´ll know roughly how long that would take and i´d also know what i want from it. But one would never be able to tell that the work on researching that be done on wednesday, 4th of august, 1am. Nor would i know exactly how much better that gun will be when i have research on it started. Knowing these things with 100% accuracy beforehand is hindsight provided by the game itself, pure and simple.

I like the idea of not knowing everything. Honestly a great mechanic would be hindering stuff and making things battlefield tested to know the real combat effectiveness or a better guess. The amount of information you get on the game is honestly absurd sometimes. It takes a lot away from the reality of playing a general or nation. You know too much and are automatically just able to know whats best without having to do anything but number crunch. Not learn from experince in the game. That'd be a good change...but HOI is still throwing loads of info about the units at you.

 

[Jazumir]

Hiding actual numbers behind verbal descriptors is both easier and harder for humans. Harder because you get less precise readings, easier because you don't need to know the scale in advance to interpret it. (example: if you had no idea about the stats, you wouldn't know whether, say 40 is a good value. But if it's verbal, say "good", you know it's one of the better ones)

Yes, and i think both are good points, for having it as an option. Harder to game, easier to use.

 

[Bane5]

In hearts of iron 3, I would tech rush medium tanks, max out armor, ignore engine and get tanks with 1942 tech armor almost, and with a speed of like 4.5.

2x infantry division + slow moving medium tank + 1 support = gg vs ai

Could steamroll Germany as some of the larger minors with it.

 

[Quendallon]

Since this is about upgrading and talking about cheesy gameplay I figure this would be ontopic to ask. When you build say 300 Panzer III I do hope you can't upgrade them to Panzer IVs. I hope its kept as a older model and slowly phased into the reserves or converted...less of a question..more of a question is this right.

I do believe this is right. Pz III will NOT be upgraded to Pz IV's after you've researched them.

 

[Denkt]

There is nothing gamey with saving experience points.

 

[LordOfWar16]

Hiding too many information from the player was one of the main critique for HoI III tho. If you want to remove hindsight then you would need to remove research trees all together and move to an ViC 2 Invention Style approach, rather than erazing basicly the vital information of the research. The furthest i would go with it is either giving an estimated window when the research is done.

The Infocard of your division template is only an estimate aswell, since all your divisions will be different from each other at some point, unless you always have massive stockpiles of the latest equipment ready. In the end everyone can play like he wants of course, thats the benefit of an very mod friendly game.

Well my question is how many upgrades does it take to the top? If its two thats sore by my standards. But On the stream I watched dumbfounded as Daniel sat there just letting XP go to waste. I assume with someone of my play style constantly upgrading my tank won't be done in two upgrades. It will be slowly upgrading it for most effective fighting force possible. So 4 or 5 variants. Which I guess reflects the attitude of the player and kinda works perfectly to par with real industry at the time. I'm more tinkery like Germany. Less like the US with drastic changes every year or two.
(I had a good thought. When producing it'd be a good idea that when producing a new upgraded model the rate at which you regain efficiency is doubled until you reach a certain point)

Since this is about upgrading and talking about cheesy gameplay I figure this would be ontopic to ask. When you build say 300 Panzer III I do hope you can't upgrade them to Panzer IVs. I hope its kept as a older model and slowly phased into the reserves or converted...less of a question..more of a question is this right.

Secondly when it comes to gun upgrades and chassis upgrades I'm curious if once you've done a major one if it's impossible to upgrade say a Panzer III with its turret to a more advanced different turret all together or a slightly wider chassis or something along those lines..My question being will you always be able to upgrade them to the latest model for example Panzer III to a Panzer IIIJ ?

To me it'd make sense at some point in upgrading became conversion. It's not attaching a few bolts at a time its entirely converting a tank. Think of a 1940s Panzer to a 1942...totally different tanks. It was a conversion, not a single change and I can see the abuse of production efficiency if you can get half the upgrades at a time instead of a natural progression. Saving 25% as the person above listed. When the reality is the marked change is a totally different manner of production. Building a 75 mm HE nub nosed gun is a lot different from a 75 mm High Velocity Gun. I would think you have to pay a large efficiency fee for that.

Maybe the extent of the upgrade should be tied to the loss of efficiency. Meaning adding on a slightly beefed up engine is only 5% while adding a totally new turret is 25%. + I had a good thought. When producing it'd be a good idea that when producing a new upgraded model the rate at which you regain efficiency is doubled until you reach a certain point
Would add a lot to the incentive of a player to actually use upgrades while also making it more realistic imo.
Not sit there for years on end never ever upgrading a tank because of loss of production is so harsh.

Upgrades are capped to 5 in each category and equipment doesnt get upgraded, only replaced. If you start producing pzIV the pzIII will be replaced and moved into your stockpile to be used elsewhere, as reserves or as lend lease if you no longer want/need them.

 

[nastydisease]

You lose 25% of your factory efficiency by updating the model on the production line. That may not sound like much but its probably something like 5-6 months worth of gearing lost. It would be far more efficient to simply throw all of the points into the latest model of tanks researched and instead just taking the 75% loss for switching model within a class. Also maxing out all four stats will impact heavily on the reliability of the vehicle. Reliability only goes to 5, and each of the other three stats reduce reliability an equal amount. Basically you can only have one stat (gun, engine, armour), maxed as well as reliability in order to have the same reliability of the default model. Otherwise you will incur more vehicle losses through attrition. Its basically simulating over engineering in the vehicle.

In short you want the xp for major milestones in your research that you are intending to stick with for a while, or perhaps in more dire straits upgrading a vehicle which is obsolete but you cannot sacrifice the full 75% of its production gearing to switch the model of. For instance if you were russia and needed every tank available but your gun or armor aren't quite cutting it. An interim measure.