Charlemagne Start Date is a Mess

[Buttons12345]

Paradox really needs to fix this whole start date. Pagans are good enough, they tend to blob but they break up fast enough that with the AI it isn't a problem but the whole of western and central Europe is invariably a mess. Even with a human player vassal limits cripple you unless you form an empire as quickly as possible which directly goes against a player who intends to form the Holy Roman Empire. Beyond that the AI is terrible at this, I have literally never seen the AI successfully form any empire, so when Charlemagne dies his empire immediately fractures leaving all of France and Germany a mess of jumbled up kingdoms, enclaves, and exclaves.

The thing is that it shouldn't be too hard to make it so playing as Charlemagne isn't tedious and so the AI can actually form an empire. For human players just tweak vassal limits in some way, either raise them by 10 for kings or increase the vassal limit slightly if one holds multiple kingdom titles and no empire titles. That allows the player to actually field their vassal levies in decent numbers. For the AI make forming empires easier, probably should just make it free for the AI as long as they are feudal so as soon as Charlemagne or someone conquers enough land they can form the empire of Francia or Germania and avoid the mess that invariably develops when you leave the AI to take care of Charlemagne.

 

[Teonod]

What?! Really?!

 

[StarSword]

Oh, it's this thread again.

 

[Asiak]

Why and what does it matter?

And no we shouldn't sorry.

I would be in favor of looking at Karl, and possibly helping to guide him more historically.

But we should not be changing core game mechanics just to prevent specific border gore from one specific area.

so when Charlemagne dies his empire immediately fractures leaving all of France and Germany a mess of jumbled up kingdoms, enclaves, and exclaves.

Because that is what happened in real life essentially. I mean sure Louis the Pious got lucky vs. gavelkind, but after that it was France, Germany and border gore.

And even if it wasn't this is just as much a simulator of what history could have been as it is a simulator of history.

Besides first lesson I learned in this game, as to leave my OCD at the door, to not let uncontrollable things such as border gore bother me.

 

[Robert II]

Why and what does it matter?

And no we shouldn't sorry.

I would be in favor of looking at Karl, and possibly helping to guide him more historically.

But we should not be changing core game mechanics just to prevent specific border gore from one specific area.



Because that is what happened in real life essentially. I mean sure Louis the Pious got lucky vs. gavelkind, but after that it was France, Germany and border gore.

And even if it wasn't this is just as much a simulator of what history could have been as it is a simulator of history.

Besides first lesson I learned in this game, as to leave my OCD at the door, to not let uncontrollable things such as border gore bother me.

There's real life border gore then there's ck2 Charlie start border gore they are not comparable. The ai really does need a lot of help with empires.

 

[Gorgonkain]

I have seen both complaints and personally, I am not sure which is preferable really. Either you have a Western European mess (which is more akin to what really happened) or a hyper-stable, super empire dominating most of Western Europe. In my current game, Carloman reformed Francia, and now I am boned because that huge blue blob isn't going anywhere.

 

[Kazanov]

I was playing as benevento at charlemagne start. Some years into it and the HRE formed when france eated the lombards. I hate big bloobs so, i think your case is specific. Im like 4 generations into the game now and the damned HRE is still there...eating more countries like the fattie it is.

 

[TL_]

I have literally never seen the AI successfully form any empire

You probably haven't played the CM start much, which is unsurprising since you're complaining about it. I can't really blame you for playing a period you dislike. But as someone with a lot of experience with this start date, I've seen Francia form with relative frequency.

Leaps and bounds more often than I see empires form in any other start date.

 

[Bernard95]

Never honestly been a fan of the 769 start date myself, and my friends and I used to jokingly call it the "Age of Blobs" or the "Old Blobs". Europe ends up in a state of gavelkind hell unless by some miracle Francia is formed (if it is formed, then you just have another blob to deal with), the Umayyads will inevitably form Hispania and usually attempt a conquest of Aquitaine and parts of France. Meanwhile, the Abbasids (or a replacement dynasty) will control everything from North Africa to the Sindh with few problems. Their counterpart the Byzantines will usually remain stable as well, and will grapple with the Abbasids over Azerbaijan unless they completely fail to the Abbasids.

 

[Dakilla TM]

The border gore is due to the AI not knowing how to distribute

Never honestly been a fan of the 769 start date myself, and my friends and I used to jokingly call it the "Age of Blobs" or the "Old Blobs". Europe ends up in a state of gavelkind hell unless by some miracle Francia is formed (if it is formed, then you just have another blob to deal with), the Umayyads will inevitably form Hispania and usually attempt a conquest of Aquitaine and parts of France. Meanwhile, the Abbasids (or a replacement dynasty) will control everything from North Africa to the Sindh with few problems. Their counterpart the Byzantines will usually remain stable as well, and will grapple with the Abbasids over Azerbaijan unless they completely fail to the Abbasids.

And just like that, within a hundred years, it's the French vs Andalusians vs Greeks vs Bedouins. Oh and also vs which ever Turkic tribe rules the steppes, typically Khazars.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

For me I have seen a total of zero times the Abbassids remain the same size or larger.

Usually they implode from decadence within 100 years.

Umayyads, or to be more accurate Muslims in Spain, are almost always stable and whole.

 

[Bernard95]

And just like that, within a hundred years, it's the French vs Andalusians vs Greeks vs Bedouins. Oh and also vs which ever Turkic tribe rules the steppes, typically Khazars.

That's exactly why we used to call it the Age of Blobs or the Old Blobs. The map gets split up by those superpowers you mentioned above with a few stragglers and that's about it.