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Jokolytic

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I spend a lot of time of an Orthodox Christian forum, and I can confirm from my own talk with scholars that this is not the case. If this was the case, why is Olaf II of Norway considered a Saint in the Orthodox Church if he lived in the 1000s? What about all the other saints who came close to the Great Schism?

I am sick and tired of Paradox's laziness with Christianity.
 

LumberKing

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I spend a lot of time of an Orthodox Christian forum, and I can confirm from my own talk with scholars that this is not the case. If this was the case, why is Olaf II of Norway considered a Saint in the Orthodox Church if he lived in the 1000s? What about all the other saints who came close to the Great Schism?

I am sick and tired of Paradox's laziness with Christianity.

Ooh, which forum? I hang in ChristianForums.com myself which has all sorts of people.

I too wish that Paradox will bring more fidelity when it comes to religion, not just Christianity (at the very least, implement Petrine Sees for Miaphysites and maybe Nestorians).
 

Jokolytic

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Ooh, which forum? I hang in ChristianForums.com myself which has all sorts of people.

I too wish that Paradox will bring more fidelity when it comes to religion, not just Christianity (at the very least, implement Petrine Sees for Miaphysites and maybe Nestorians).

orthodoxchristianity.net, but I have been a lurker recently.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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I spend a lot of time of an Orthodox Christian forum, and I can confirm from my own talk with scholars that this is not the case. If this was the case, why is Olaf II of Norway considered a Saint in the Orthodox Church if he lived in the 1000s? What about all the other saints who came close to the Great Schism?

I am sick and tired of Paradox's laziness with Christianity.

There are saints who are listed in both canons from much later than this.
An example :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrosyne_of_Polatsk 1173
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_the_Confessor 1066

Just because someone is listed as a Saint in more than one part of the church does not mean that the two were united at the time. It merely means that the two parts of the church thought they were a good example and worth following for the faithful.

If it's all so united pre-Schism, why are there Saints from before the Schism that are recognised only by one of Orthodoxy and Catholicism?

Then there are the pre-reformation saints who are not considered such, even by the Catholic influenced Anglican communion. Some of these are even from pre-Catholic/Orthodox split times.
 

LumberKing

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orthodoxchristianity.net, but I have been a lurker recently.

They have some good information. I've been there once or twice, at least you don't have any crazy SDA people, lol. :D
 

LumberKing

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Hey, maybe I've seen you around there, although I'm not too active myself either. I mostly just stalk orthonorm's profile and heed his every word.

At this point, we're real close to derailing this thread by going off-topic, but I have to ask. Does that forum have crazy as fundamental Orthodox people like they do in the Catholic forums?
 

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The game is already split for the patriarchs on the Orthodox side. Would be interesting for a long event chain based on various factors to come into play for the schism to formally occur.
 

LumberKing

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Should Miaphysitism and Nestorianism be separate or be considered heresies of said united Chalcedonian Christianity only to become independent after a Schism of some sort?
 

Jokolytic

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Should Miaphysitism and Nestorianism be separate or be considered heresies of said united Chalcedonian Christianity only to become independent after a Schism of some sort?

Different branch, same as always.
 

LumberKing

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Different branch, same as always.

It's just that, both of these groups were condemned as heretics by the united Chalcedonian. It would make sense for them to be independent during the schism between east and west, but if they're united...
 

DC123456789

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Should Miaphysitism and Nestorianism be separate or be considered heresies of said united Chalcedonian Christianity only to become independent after a Schism of some sort?

Nope, you would literally have to go back to the fall of the Roman Empire to have that (431 for Nestorianism, 451 for Miaphysitism).
 

Talq

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It's just that, both of these groups were condemned as heretics by the united Chalcedonian. It would make sense for them to be independent during the schism between east and west, but if they're united...

They were declared as heresies long before the schism. That why they are called pre-chalcedonian faiths.
 

Vasili1097

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I wouldn't mind seeing a EU4-style reform desire system which leads up to a more dynamic schism, maybe not always East vs. West. Perhaps a schism could be avoided altogether if done right.
 

Scotty the Scot

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Why would it be a schism?

Because it WAS a schism.

While not very well known, and didn't make as great an impact on the world as the East-West Schism, Celtic Christianity ( practiced by Bretons,Gaels, Britons and Picts) essentially broke off from the Western Church for quite a long while. Most of it had to do with the Celts' problems with authority and thus didn't jump at every Papal command, and it created a pretty tense situation for a long time. However, the Celtic Schism ended when the Vikings sacked their holy places, like Iona, in ToG's timeline.

I'd suggest looking it up, its pretty fascinating.

As for it being implemented in the game, while its definitely within the timeline of CM (and ToG, for that matter), I doubt it'd get implemented.
 

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That was Doomsdark, and he was talking about the Zun Paganism in Eastern Persia which was worshipped by the Zunbil Dynasty in Zabulistan. In all seriousness, why is this thread getting derailed? Don't get me wrong, having new paganism would be awesome, but this thread is talking about how we're going to deal with Christianity.

As cool as this sounds apparently according to wikipedia they were prevalent int he late 6th century.
 

Ivashanko

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As interesting as this would be (and it really is- I love studying Orthodox-Catholic relations), I personally think Paradox has more important things to do than implement a change that will probably be bugged and will almost certainly cause a forum backlash ('why did my vassal in England suddenly become Catholic when I wanted to be Orthodox?!', etc). The current set up is not historical, but it will suffice.
 

Jokolytic

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As interesting as this would be (and it really is- I love studying Orthodox-Catholic relations), I personally think Paradox has more important things to do than implement a change that will probably be bugged and will almost certainly cause a forum backlash ('why did my vassal in England suddenly become Catholic when I wanted to be Orthodox?!', etc). The current set up is not historical, but it will suffice.

M-maybe in CKIII ;_;

Although, I believe the split could work based on several factors, based on a de iure Pentarchy relations system.

Sigh, I really wish we had some real theologians to figure this out.
 

LumberKing

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Nope, you would literally have to go back to the fall of the Roman Empire to have that (431 for Nestorianism, 451 for Miaphysitism).

How would that make them not heretics? A united Melkite religion would surely be able to enforce the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon, where as a post Great Schism would not. Don't you think?

They were declared as heresies long before the schism. That why they are called pre-chalcedonian faiths.

Exactly. That's why I'm saying, since they're non-Chalcedonian, wouldn't it make sense to make them heretics of a Chalcedonian Christianity when it was still considered one somewhat?

Because it WAS a schism.

While not very well known, and didn't make as great an impact on the world as the East-West Schism, Celtic Christianity ( practiced by Bretons,Gaels, Britons and Picts) essentially broke off from the Western Church for quite a long while. Most of it had to do with the Celts' problems with authority and thus didn't jump at every Papal command, and it created a pretty tense situation for a long time. However, the Celtic Schism ended when the Vikings sacked their holy places, like Iona, in ToG's timeline.

I'd suggest looking it up, its pretty fascinating.

As for it being implemented in the game, while its definitely within the timeline of CM (and ToG, for that matter), I doubt it'd get implemented.

Source please. In terms of what I have read, they have never broke communion with Rome. Just because a particular group of Christianity has a different ritual and what not, doesn't make them schismatic nor a lack of contact. Schisms are a result of Councils and Anathemas due to heresies or in case of the West, disobedience to the Pope, which the Celtics did not do since they venerated Roman authority. There were plenty of different rites in Western Christianity such as the various British ones, Gallic, Mozarabic, et cetera. However, in the end they all accepted Roman authority.

As cool as this sounds apparently according to wikipedia they were prevalent int he late 6th century.

They were pretty much dead though some provinces should be represented by them, but the ruling elites all converted to Islam by then.

M-maybe in CKIII ;_;

Although, I believe the split could work based on several factors, based on a de iure Pentarchy relations system.

Sigh, I really wish we had some real theologians to figure this out.

I'm a semi-qualified theologian. ;)

The thing as, as many have noted, the whole East-West schism is overly-complicated due to multitude of factors involved. For starters, 1054 is just a convenient dating, where as in reality it was just a verbal spat between a Cardinal and a Patriarch, the former having no real authority due to his Master's death. The key events that led to the situation we know today are; Coronation of Charlemagne, Photian Schism and the two Fourth Councils of Constantinople, that verbal spat, and the various events related to the Fourth Crusade. That's not even including the prior events such as the elevation of Constantinople, Three Chapters Controversy, and the whole cluster-fuck with the Council in Trullo which goes back to a period where the Fall of Rome was awfully fresh (or even before that!).
 
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