Charlemagne DLC and Chalcedonian Christianity

[LACKADAISICAL]

For Hero cults/Imperial Cults, it'd be cool if after a particularly prestigious character died there would be a chance for cults to spring up which worship them. Becoming a patron of a cult which treats your father as a god is a good way to ensure that your dynasty gets respect.

I also think they could do with some unique CBs. A holy war CB wouldn't fit, but a subjugation-like CB would. Ideally it would subjugate land without usurping the counties from their original holders, so you could reflect the multi-cultural nature of the Roman Empire by having vassals of many different cultures and religions. To help stabilize your diverse realm maybe they should also get an opinion bonus like the Jains have, or at least a diminished infidel penalty. The Romans didn't force subjugated cultures to convert, and their persecution of Christians was more of a political nature than religious.

 

[vyshan]

For Hero cults/Imperial Cults, it'd be cool if after a particularly prestigious character died there would be a chance for cults to spring up which worship them. Becoming a patron of a cult which treats your father as a god is a good way to ensure that your dynasty gets respect.

Indeed, not to mention if they ever added Sainthood*, then the mechanics behind that would be good to do for something like your ancestor being deified.

*I want that to be part of this DLC it was in the first CK game after all and it would help add flavor to christians and perhaps show a difference with heretics who take umbrage at sainthood

 

[smeggy]

back in the age this new exp start wasn't catholic and orthodox not split? will this be adressed?

It was a complex proces. The official split was later, but the forces driving Rome apart where already there for a long time. It's not like a light switch turned off.

 

[LACKADAISICAL]

Indeed, not to mention if they ever added Sainthood*, then the mechanics behind that would be good to do for something like your ancestor being deified.

*I want that to be part of this DLC it was in the first CK game after all and it would help add flavor to christians and perhaps show a difference with heretics who take umbrage at sainthood

I'd love any mechanics which would make it seem like your older characters actually effected history, and sainthood and stuff like that would be a good place to start. It is a shame how your awesome ruler who died in battle fending off the Seljuks or whatever is mostly forgotten in the history files. I like to name conquered foreign counties after my best rulers to try and let them leave a mark on the world.

A system of named relics would also be a great feature to reflect your former rulers as well. Charlemagne's sword is a good example--it was kept by the French kings and used in their coronation ceremonies. It'd be neat if you could keep relics from your best rulers, and perhaps lose them if your capital is sacked.

 

[Emre Yigit]

As addressed in another thread (EDIT: which since seems to have been merged into this one), Christianity in these centuries wasn't monolithic at all. Not only did you have the "heresies", but even within the spheres of influence of the patriarchs, there was considerable difference in approach.

The Pope was more of a first among equals; rather different to the situation in later medieval times. 768 is only 17 after the fall of the Exarchate of Ravenna, 19 years before the second-to-last generally accepted Ecumenical Council, etc.


Even at the 867 start, one could argue that "Chalcedonian Christianity" would represent the situation better than RC / Orthodox. But there we always ran into the problem of the 800 coronation and the Donation of Constantine. In 768, there is no Empress in Constantinople, although the ERE is hardly in a great position no one dares to call them anything but Roman, no settled powerful Frankish realm, the Lateran Council of 769 has not been held, the Donation probably has not been forged yet, etc. Yes, there is obviously a growing divide between Rome and Constntinople, but the Western Patriarch continues to semi-acknowlege the authority of the ERE, explicitly using a dating system based on ERE regnal years. Even if the start date is 769, the Lateran Council is not really a turning point; there were plenty of local, Patriarchal councils, often with different results.

It is certainly a very fluid time, and things are hardly so set in stone that Rome can be considered to have permanently escaped the orbit of the Emperors in the East.

It is partly because of this that I am quite intrigued by this expansion, because so many mechanics (also succession dynamics at the top and among "vassals") should be quite different to the situation post-the-original-1066 start date.

For the 867 date, we can say, "Yeah, well, it wasn't really like that, but it became so soon enough" and finesse the probem, but for a 768 date, I don't think that is possible.

 

[LumberKing]

Seems Paradox doesn't listen to what we want. They only listen to what we'll pay for. I skipped Rajas of India.... If this thing really is $19.99, I'll skip it as well.

Not attacking you in anyway or form, but they don't have to listen to what we want and sometimes they shouldn't. They're game developers and should be focused on what will make them the most money and most importantly, what they want to make. Anything else, is just opinions.

While I hope to avoid the religious debates, I think would be historically accurate to have the Bishop of Rome as the head of "Chalcedonian" Christianity. There are numerous examples of bishops - even in the nominal jurisdiction of other Patriarchs - having a sort of final appeal to Rome. Inside the Church, the Bishop of Rome was given an undisputed Primacy of Honor, and Rome's Primacy of Jurisdiction only started to be disputed in the 8th-9th Centuries, not a small part of which involved Imperial Politics and the whims of whomever happened to sit the Imperial Throne. It was only then that the Patriarch of Constantinople started to get...uppity

Somewhat, it is generally agreed (almost universally) that the Pope of Rome had the Primacy of Honour, being not only the primus, but also the protos. How it is interpreted in terms of jurisdiction and authority is what is in contention. It will be nice if there could somehow implement a complex system of the Petrine Sees vs the Pentarchy, where Chalcedonian Christians fight over which jurisdictional system they want which along with a whole load of other clusterfucks (like the real important ones) will eventually lead to a grand schism.

So since this start predates even the crowning of Charlemagne as roman emperor, do you think this will mean a new pre-schism christian map?

Unless they can implement it awesomely, I hope they don't, otherwise it may really cock up gameplay as well as being anti-historical.

I was under the impression that even then,he was acknowledged by other patriarchs as first amongst equals, much like how the Patriarch of Constantinople is regarded modern day by other patriarchs, and was there to mediate disputes when there's one between the different patriarchs.

Yes, you are under the correct impression. When the various bishops of the East had disputes, they would often send requests to the Bishop of Rome to arbitrate on their behalf. The modern Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople does not really do this unless it is within their jurisdiction (which is incidentally actually quite small).

The council if Toledo (which decided the Filioque in reaction to Arianism) was not even attended by the Bishop of Rome.

Well, the Council of Toledo wasn't an ecumenical councils and its findings weren't even accepted until much later. Besides, the Bishop of Rome hardly attended any Ecumenical Councils, and only sent delegates to the latter half of the generally agreed seven or accepted them retrospectively.

Indeed, not to mention if they ever added Sainthood*, then the mechanics behind that would be good to do for something like your ancestor being deified.

*I want that to be part of this DLC it was in the first CK game after all and it would help add flavor to christians and perhaps show a difference with heretics who take umbrage at sainthood

Didn't the first game have the Sainthood system?

As addressed in another thread (EDIT: which since seems to have been merged into this one), Christianity in these centuries wasn't monolithic at all. Not only did you have the "heresies", but even within the spheres of influence of the patriarchs, there was considerable difference in approach.

The Pope was more of a first among equals; rather different to the situation in later medieval times. 768 is only 17 after the fall of the Exarchate of Ravenna, 19 years before the second-to-last generally accepted Ecumenical Council, etc.


Even at the 867 start, one could argue that "Chalcedonian Christianity" would represent the situation better than RC / Orthodox. But there we always ran into the problem of the 800 coronation and the Donation of Constantine. In 768, there is no Empress in Constantinople, although the ERE was hardly in a great position no one dares to call them anything but Roman, no settled powerful Frankish realm, the Lateran Council of 769 has not been held, the Donation probably has not been forged yet, etc. Yes, there is obviously a growing divide between Rome and Constntinople, but the Western Patriarch continues to semi-acknowlege the authority of the ERE, explicitly using a dating system based on ERE regnal years. Even if the start date is 769, the Lateran Council is not really a turning point; there were plenty of local, Patriarchal councils, often with different results.

It is certainly a very fluid time, and things are hardly so set in stone that Rome can be considered to have permanently escaped the orbit of the Emperors in the East.

It is partly because of this that I am quite intrigued by this expansion, because so many mechanics (also succession dynamics at the top and among "vassals") should be quite different to the situation post-the-original-1066 start date.

For the 867 date, we can say, "Yeah, well, it wasn't really like that, but it became so soon enough" and finesse the probem, but for a 768 date, I don't think that is possible.

The thing about Chalcedonian Christianity is that, although both East and the West were often at odd with each other, it didn't get really bad until the Massacre of the Latins and the Sack of Constantinople, et cetera (Fourth Crusade stuff). I'll even go as far to say that the event of 1054 AD wasn't even a Great Schism in that it was just a verbal spat between Cardinal Humbert and Patriarch Ceralius, the former having almost no authority on behalf of the Western Church, since the Pope had died when shit hit the fan. Even after the Fourth Crusade, there were still a sense of "unity" between the Catholics and the Orthodox (not really) in that the Pope even excommunicated the Emperor when he became involved in the Sicilian Vespers.

Crowning of Charlemagne, Donations of Constantine, Photian Schism, Bulgaria, 1054, Fourth Crusade, et cetera, these are all signs of growing estrangement between the East and the West, and in terms of gameplay, it could be represented very well with either united Chalcedonian/Melkite religion with a potential breakup (like the cultural breakups) or what we have now, but with more options of interacting between the two.

One of the ways of doing it with the first option is to disable to Papal States and the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and instead of having a universal religious head, have it multi-head depending on jurisdiction. Also implement a crown authority like the investiture where the player can choose between the Petrine Sees, Pentarchy, or a completely free jurisdiction system where one appoints one own religious head like the Anti-Pope or Autocephalic Patriarch. Eventually, the schism will happen, and those who chose the Petrine See will become Catholic, Pentarchy will become Orthodox, while the third option gets to choose while resulting in some prestige/piety loss (or become heretic). Then re-activate the Papal States and the Ecumenical Patriarch titles.

 

[Vasious]

Didn't the first game have the Sainthood system?

Yes
Pious characters could become beatified upon death.
Then if you father had the Beatified Trait you could petition the Pope to raise them to Sainthood. The gain the Trait and you gained Piety and Prestige

 

[LumberKing]

Yes
Pious characters could become beatified upon death.
Then if you father had the Beatified Trait you could petition the Pope to raise them to Sainthood. The gain the Trait and you gained Piety and Prestige

I want this back in.

 

[Cheesecakeczar]

Confusingly, a thread about religion in general was merged here, so we have conversations about Hellenic and Zoroastrian in a thread solely about Chalcedonian Christianity.

 

[Jokolytic]

Perhaps have a de iure invisible line for East and West that determines who follows what Bishop (of Rome/Constantinople) and then further decided by who proselytizes to heathens. And then after events concerning schism if it happens, that invisible line decides Catholic and Orthodox?

 

[Federalist girl]

***one could make the aurgument that their could be a head of state as the Pontfix Maximus is the closest thing to a pope that hellenic faith would have, hell it is a title used by the pope today, I though do not think that it would be good to include it

This is really weird with the thread merge, but okay...

Anyway, the Pontifex Maximus would be a valid religious head, I think. The "Hellenic" faith as seen in the game has references to the Roman gods rather than the Greek ones, so the fleshing out should probably include the old Roman religious head. Certainly the Greeks who would be the sole remaining adherents of the religion would probably argue their religion was different, but the various faiths that made up Greco-Roman religion were syncretic enough that they started fusing together and the Pontifex Maximus tended to have authority over them all (in the person of the emperor) rather than just the old Roman civic religion.

 

[YouMust99]

Didn't one of the devs mention a sun related religion in afganistan in the old gods livestream, and how they were sad they were a few decades off and couldn't put it in.

 

[LumberKing]

Didn't one of the devs mention a sun related religion in afganistan in the old gods livestream, and how they were sad they were a few decades off and couldn't put it in.

That was Doomsdark, and he was talking about the Zun Paganism in Eastern Persia which was worshipped by the Zunbil Dynasty in Zabulistan. In all seriousness, why is this thread getting derailed? Don't get me wrong, having new paganism would be awesome, but this thread is talking about how we're going to deal with Christianity.

 

[Federalist girl]

In all seriousness, why is this thread getting derailed? Don't get me wrong, having new paganism would be awesome, but this thread is talking about how we're going to deal with Christianity.

No. The moderators merged a bunch of threads about paganism and the religious setup in general into this thread, and for some reason didn't change the thread title to reflect that. The thread looks terribly derailed at random points because it's like 3 different threads merged together.

 

[Sparticulous]

Not attacking you in anyway or form, but they don't have to listen to what we want and sometimes they shouldn't. They're game developers and should be focused on what will make them the most money and most importantly, what they want to make. Anything else, is just opinions.



Somewhat, it is generally agreed (almost universally) that the Pope of Rome had the Primacy of Honour, being not only the primus, but also the protos. How it is interpreted in terms of jurisdiction and authority is what is in contention. It will be nice if there could somehow implement a complex system of the Petrine Sees vs the Pentarchy, where Chalcedonian Christians fight over which jurisdictional system they want which along with a whole load of other clusterfucks (like the real important ones) will eventually lead to a grand schism.



Unless they can implement it awesomely, I hope they don't, otherwise it may really cock up gameplay as well as being anti-historical.



Yes, you are under the correct impression. When the various bishops of the East had disputes, they would often send requests to the Bishop of Rome to arbitrate on their behalf. The modern Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople does not really do this unless it is within their jurisdiction (which is incidentally actually quite small).



Well, the Council of Toledo wasn't an ecumenical councils and its findings weren't even accepted until much later. Besides, the Bishop of Rome hardly attended any Ecumenical Councils, and only sent delegates to the latter half of the generally agreed seven or accepted them retrospectively.



Didn't the first game have the Sainthood system?



The thing about Chalcedonian Christianity is that, although both East and the West were often at odd with each other, it didn't get really bad until the Massacre of the Latins and the Sack of Constantinople, et cetera (Fourth Crusade stuff). I'll even go as far to say that the event of 1054 AD wasn't even a Great Schism in that it was just a verbal spat between Cardinal Humbert and Patriarch Ceralius, the former having almost no authority on behalf of the Western Church, since the Pope had died when shit hit the fan. Even after the Fourth Crusade, there were still a sense of "unity" between the Catholics and the Orthodox (not really) in that the Pope even excommunicated the Emperor when he became involved in the Sicilian Vespers.

Crowning of Charlemagne, Donations of Constantine, Photian Schism, Bulgaria, 1054, Fourth Crusade, et cetera, these are all signs of growing estrangement between the East and the West, and in terms of gameplay, it could be represented very well with either united Chalcedonian/Melkite religion with a potential breakup (like the cultural breakups) or what we have now, but with more options of interacting between the two.

One of the ways of doing it with the first option is to disable to Papal States and the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and instead of having a universal religious head, have it multi-head depending on jurisdiction. Also implement a crown authority like the investiture where the player can choose between the Petrine Sees, Pentarchy, or a completely free jurisdiction system where one appoints one own religious head like the Anti-Pope or Autocephalic Patriarch. Eventually, the schism will happen, and those who chose the Petrine See will become Catholic, Pentarchy will become Orthodox, while the third option gets to choose while resulting in some prestige/piety loss (or become heretic). Then re-activate the Papal States and the Ecumenical Patriarch titles.

I really like this idea! It would be cool to see it implemented

 

[TheBoozehammer]

I was disappointed by the lack of a schism in TOG, so I hope that is changed here.

 

[Fewrfreyut]

To say the schism of Catholic and Orthodox began at Charlemagne's coronation is both inaccurate and insulting to history and both churches alike. I really hope Paradox makes Christianity Chalcedonian for Catholic/Orthodox in the 769 A.D. start date, even 867 was pushing it.

(I mean even though Charlemagne advocated the Filioque clause, many Orthodox do revere him and don't see him as a schismatic, but that's not this topic's purpose.)

Can I just say that I love Paradox games almost as much for the forum posts as the actual games?

I just completed a masters in history and I'm always blown away by the wealth of specific knowledge about old languages, religious events, and other cultural studies all found on these forums.

 

[Lwantssugar]

Here you go. Of course this is just taking the piss as this "Easter Egg" religion would have more mechanics than other faiths

HELLENIC

Still no raiding: We are civilized and all that jazz...

Female temple holders

Concubines

Olympic games: Grand tournament with new fluff text and lesser chance of death. Can be held every fours year but only during summer.

Orgies: Great feast, increased change to get Hedonist, Gluttonous, Drunkard Lustful and Syphilis traits

Vinalia: Summer fair

Sol Invictus: Solstice festival (as other pagans)

Patron Gods: Like Hindu Patron gods, different names naturally.

Pilgrimage: To Mount Olympus

Ludi Romani: Diviner organizes games. This would replace "Improve religious relations" ability and work as "Perform charity" that Muslim court imams have, except any related fluff text would be changed.

Pax Romana: New Casus belli, usable by king/emperor only. Subjugates a de-jure duchy.

Once there was dream of Rome: Ruler with Hellenic Faith can reform Roman Empire. Requirements are same as with Byzantines. If for some reason ruler is not yet Emperor when this happens, he receives titular "Roman empire"

Pontifex Maximus: Hellenic is already re-formed but by controlling three holy sites, religious authority of 50% and cost of 750 piety (or controlling all holy sites), Office of Pontifex Maximus is re-established. This functions as religious head for Hellenic faith and is a duke level title as with other pagan faiths, rather than Fylkirate.

Hellenic faith's holy order would appear and be of same composition as Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchure (As for name of said holy order, no idea.)

Roman Culture & Retinue

Rather than having Roman retinue as such, vanilla retinues are renamed and to simulate Roman military culture, their effectiveness is increased by +5%. So Princepes retinue is +25% HI defense/+45% archer offense and so on.

Skirmish retinue is renamed "Velites"
Cavalry retinue is renamed "Equitees"
Defense retinue is renamed "Triarii"
Shock retinue is renamed "Principes"

Building: Roman barracks: +20 Heavy infantry, +10 Pikemen, +15% HI/Pikemen defensive

The Holy Order could be the Sons of Ares/Mars

 

[LumberKing]

The Holy Order could be the Sons of Ares/Mars

Weren't Romans in general considered to be the sons of Mars?

 

[Lord_P]

Am I the only one who's excited to play a pre-Christianized Balkans? For some reason, leading a pagan Serbia to conquer the Byzantines sounds like fun.

I'm excited to play as the Avar Khaganate.