Charlemagne DLC and Chalcedonian Christianity
- Thread starter Jokolytic
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I guess it sort of depends on how you define "new age" stuff, but it seems to me that religions which draw on pre-Christian tradition with a mystical take on spirituality qualify.
I just mean to say that the fact that there are both Zoroastrians and Hellenic pagans around today doesn't mean much--Zoroastrians have a continuous tradition, whereas the idea of reviving Hellenism probably came around in the 80s or something.
As for features greek pagans could have in-game a conversion bonus against Pagans due to their semi-inclusive nature would be good. Maybe a system of traits like the hindus have to indicate various branches of Greek philosophy that your character might follow, so you could be a Stoic or a Cynic.
Yeah, quite a bit wrong. The folks posting in this thread are generally correct.
Highlights:
-- Paganism (of all forms, not just the official Roman state religion) was the dominant religious form in the Roman Empire in the 200s AD
-- The Edict of Milan, in 313 AD, legalized Christianity as a religion and officially ended the great persecution of the last few decades
-- Julian the Apostate, the last pagan Roman emperor, died in 363 AD.
-- the imperial court tended to convert quickest, to gain favor with the emperor, since high titles and rank went to Christians
-- the Roman Senate tended to be largely pagan, because the old Roman traditions stayed with them
-- Christianity was made the official state religion in 395 AD, pagan worship was outlawed and temples were closed
-- by the 6th century, Justinian had to continue to enforce anti-pagan laws and closed the Academy of Athens because the classically educated teachers there were largely pagan
-- By the 8th century, the only remaining Hellenic pagans were villagers in the Pelopponese
Paganism tended to be strongest among: the old Roman nobility (as in, the actual Romans of Rome), the upper classes of the Greek city-states (who, like the Senate, lost political power in the late Empire), and the peasantry. What all these groups had in power was powerlessness -- regular people, the military, and people holding high office with the emperors tended to be Christian in the late Roman Empire.
By 769, the aristocratic class of the Greek city-states no longer existed and the remnants of the Roman Senate basically joined the clergy (those who still had any wealth left after the Gothic Wars, anyway).
Here you go. Of course this is just taking the piss as this "Easter Egg" religion would have more mechanics than other faiths
HELLENIC
Still no raiding: We are civilized and all that jazz...
Female temple holders
Concubines
Olympic games: Grand tournament with new fluff text and lesser chance of death. Can be held every fours year but only during summer.
Orgies: Great feast, increased change to get Hedonist, Gluttonous, Drunkard Lustful and Syphilis traits
Vinalia: Summer fair
Sol Invictus: Solstice festival (as other pagans)
Patron Gods: Like Hindu Patron gods, different names naturally.
Pilgrimage: To Mount Olympus
Ludi Romani: Diviner organizes games. This would replace "Improve religious relations" ability and work as "Perform charity" that Muslim court imams have, except any related fluff text would be changed.
Pax Romana: New Casus belli, usable by king/emperor only. Subjugates a de-jure duchy.
Once there was dream of Rome: Ruler with Hellenic Faith can reform Roman Empire. Requirements are same as with Byzantines. If for some reason ruler is not yet Emperor when this happens, he receives titular "Roman empire"
Pontifex Maximus: Hellenic is already re-formed but by controlling three holy sites, religious authority of 50% and cost of 750 piety (or controlling all holy sites), Office of Pontifex Maximus is re-established. This functions as religious head for Hellenic faith and is a duke level title as with other pagan faiths, rather than Fylkirate.
Hellenic faith's holy order would appear and be of same composition as Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchure (As for name of said holy order, no idea.)
Roman Culture & Retinue
Rather than having Roman retinue as such, vanilla retinues are renamed and to simulate Roman military culture, their effectiveness is increased by +5%. So Princepes retinue is +25% HI defense/+45% archer offense and so on.
Skirmish retinue is renamed "Velites"
Cavalry retinue is renamed "Equitees"
Defense retinue is renamed "Triarii"
Shock retinue is renamed "Principes"
Building: Roman barracks: +20 Heavy infantry, +10 Pikemen, +15% HI/Pikemen defensive
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Perhaps there could be an event chain concerning a council that could be intervened with choices (by player or AI) depending on Learning trait to help keep (or divide) the faith?
It'd be neat if Hellenic rulers were able to take male concubines too, since so many pagan Roman emperors did. Unlike other pagans though I don't think they should be able to take imprisoned women as concubines.
Maybe we will have saxon pagans finally
...Actually, yeah, what other religions existed in that time period that disappeared on time old gods happens?
...Actually, yeah, what other religions existed in that time period that disappeared on time old gods happens?
While I hope to avoid the religious debates, I think would be historically accurate to have the Bishop of Rome as the head of "Chalcedonian" Christianity. There are numerous examples of bishops - even in the nominal jurisdiction of other Patriarchs - having a sort of final appeal to Rome. Inside the Church, the Bishop of Rome was given an undisputed Primacy of Honor, and Rome's Primacy of Jurisdiction only started to be disputed in the 8th-9th Centuries, not a small part of which involved Imperial Politics and the whims of whomever happened to sit the Imperial Throne. It was only then that the Patriarch of Constantinople started to get...uppity
The council if Toledo (which decided the Filioque in reaction to Arianism) was not even attended by the Bishop of Rome.
I might be wrong, but I think the saxons were Christians for about 100 years by the time of Charlemagne.
Anglo-Saxons were mostly. In the east there should still be pagan Saxons left though.
Other than Hellenic maybe being in a none character builder window and maybe a full pagan religion, are their any new/different kinds of pagans we can expect.
From a screen shot I saw it looks like there might be some work needed with the Norse to cause the age of Vikings to happen, but what else should be new or changed? Christian and Orthodox will likely still be separate as the game starts as Charlemagne ascends at the start date I believe they said and the Pope declaring him the Holy Roman Emperor is arguably the beginning of the Schism.
Do the Goths have their own religion? Has Saint Peter been to Ireland yet? Basically all their pagans out there who don't fall into previously established groups, I saw the Saxons added in but I kinda assume they are a type of Slav, but I don't know.
From a screen shot I saw it looks like there might be some work needed with the Norse to cause the age of Vikings to happen, but what else should be new or changed? Christian and Orthodox will likely still be separate as the game starts as Charlemagne ascends at the start date I believe they said and the Pope declaring him the Holy Roman Emperor is arguably the beginning of the Schism.
Do the Goths have their own religion? Has Saint Peter been to Ireland yet? Basically all their pagans out there who don't fall into previously established groups, I saw the Saxons added in but I kinda assume they are a type of Slav, but I don't know.
All I know is there will be a lot more Zoroastrian provinces, also I cant wait to play as a member of the Merovingian dynasty
Ah, in that case I wonder if they'll just be represented as Norse or if we will have a new branch of germanic paganism.
Could the Exilarch be landed? Would be fun, although a landed Exilarch does seem to be a contradiction in terms...
I wish they added germanic paganism, but for I'm willing to bet that they are just Norse while Norse gets more flavor events and decisions to include the fact. Also I'm willing to bet that they neglect completely every other form of paganism again.
I wouldn't be surprised if there is more Zoroastrian stuff, since there should be a lot of them at this start date.
well there is the Massacre of Verden, when four thousand and five hundred saxons were massacred because they refused to become Christians on Charlegmagne's orders. so yea, there were saxon pagans, a lot of them.
I am curious how entrenched christanity was in the british isles though at this point.
Well the "decadent lifestyle" is not a demonstrable fact, but instead seems very much like a historiographical attempt to retroactively tarnish the holders of an admittedly quite weak papacy with moral blemish, too.
well since I am asking for it, here is what I would like from a Hellenic Faith
- No raids and already reformed: the Hellenic faith has long been an urbanized faith and should not need 'christinzation' to be 'saved'
- Philosphical schools of thoughts: As what Lackadaiscal suggested, philosophy was a component to supporting the faith and culture.
- Mystery cults: not sure how to do this, but having mystery cults would be something that I think characters could get iniatied into.
- Olympic Games: this could be the main religious festival, of course to be fair there are loads and loads of festivals.
- Augury and divination*: Augres and Diviners were an important part of the religion, while the orcale of delphi is the most famous diviner, there were plenty other diviners throughout the greek and roman world.
- Something related to the Imperial Cult and Hero cults
- pilgrimages to sacred locations**: There were pilgrimages to many places in the ancient world for Hellenics. There were city locations such as Delphi and Eleusis, of course several natural locations also were pilgrimage sites, such as mount olympus.
- No head of religion*** it would act like hinduism in that regard. However there should be something for the vestal virgins.
*this should be for all the pagan faiths as well IMO and I recall that it was once.
**I would like to see pilgrimage events for all the faiths as they are cool and fun.
***one could make the aurgument that their could be a head of state as the Pontfix Maximus is the closest thing to a pope that hellenic faith would have, hell it is a title used by the pope today, I though do not think that it would be good to include it
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