Admittedly, "haha what?" is a pretty unhelpful answer, but wikipedia (FWIW) lists pagan Roman emperors as late as the late 300s, and of course the famous conversion of Constantine the Great ... well, he wasn't emperor until after 300 AD. Justinian also famously shut down an Academy (established in the name of Plato and his philosophies and beliefs) -- that would have been in the early half of 500s AD. So, certainly not eliminated that early, but I haven't heard anyone proposing evidence that there should be any nobility/etc worshiping the old Hellenic gods by Charlemagne's time.
Charlemagne DLC and Chalcedonian Christianity
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Admittedly, "haha what?" is a pretty unhelpful answer, but wikipedia (FWIW) lists pagan Roman emperors as late as the late 300s, and of course the famous conversion of Constantine the Great ... well, he wasn't emperor until after 300 AD. Justinian also famously shut down an Academy (established in the name of Plato and his philosophies and beliefs) -- that would have been in the early half of 500s AD. So, certainly not eliminated that early, but I haven't heard anyone proposing evidence that there should be any nobility/etc worshiping the old Hellenic gods by Charlemagne's time.
The nice thing about the autocephaly/pentarchy system is that it doesn't really matter who the official head of faith is, as far as game mechanics are concerned. So, the Pope could be it in a Chalcedonian Church, without the Patriarch losing any authority, in actuality.
Does province culture refer to the common people living there or the local ruling elite? An argument could be made for both sides depending on how you interpret it.
Justinian had to combat paganism in the 6th century. Well, he didn't have to, but he chose to.
I have always interpreted it as commoner culture, or at least non-nobility... thus the reason you get peasant rebels, liberation rebels, in addition to mayors and courtiers of the "local" culture. (doesn't mean that's what Paradox meant, of course)
Very true, thought I would argue that the religion of the ruling elite is represented by the religion of the counts, barons, mayors and bishops.
But my point is, was the ruling elite in the year 400 more in touch with their people than the ruling elite are in the year 2014? I mean, come on... the ruling elite in the modern day believe that poor people deserve to starve to death in the streets of the wealthiest nation in the world. They're totally out of touch. Are you really going to make the claim that rulers in the 4th and 5th century were more in touch with common beliefs?
I'd always thought of it like this: the province's culture/religion represents the majority of the people in that province, while the owners of holdings, the count and his courtiers represent the rulers.
I don't think any rulers (playable characters) would be hellenic, but it's possible one or two provinces could be.
I agree, my point was that culture/religion of the ruling class is represented in game by the of the characters in charge there, while the culture/religion of the common man is represented by that of the province.
I hope paradox is thinking the same way, so that those of us with RoI can convert and play a fleshed out Hellenism with a new UI and proper religious clothes and titles.
You remember your ruler's response to culture changing in his demesne?
"Civilized peasants?!"
There's your answer.
Fairly,spectacularly. Hellenic Paganism was alive until the 9th century in the Peloponnese.
It's fairly established that a county's religion represents the majority religion of that county's populace. If it could be proven that a particular county would have a Hellenic majority, one could convert to Hellenic and bring the faith back to the Empire.
Here is a question for others wanting Hellenismos/Hellenic/Religio Romana IG? in your wish list, what would you like to have?
Hellenistic Paganism was the official religion of the Roman Empire until Constantine’s accession, though when he converted and how sincerely is an endless question. Christianity would not be made the Roman official religion until 395 either so there was a good period of turmoil when neither one or the other was 'official'. Regardless, all the Emperors after 337CE (except for Julian’s 2 year reign) were Christian.
Once the Emperor’s became Christian the conversion or pseudo-conversion of people increased amongst those wanting Imperial jobs or offices especially after 395 when Theodosius imposed harsh penalties on Pagans.
Paganism declined over the next centuries, reserved for a small minority of nobles and an undetermined number of the rural folk. By the time that Justinian closed the Academy in the 530s Paganism had no power anymore.
By 768, a century before the Old Gods? I suspect there may be a few provinces which are Hellenic, possibly in Greece, Sicily or the Balkans. I suspect there won’t be any more than a couple and no characters will start with that religion.
Unlike with Zoroastrianism, Paganism had been an official dead letter for 3 centuries before Charlemagne and reduced only to clinging on to fringes of Empire. And of course, Zoroastrianism survives to the present, whilst Hellenic Paganism does not.
Once the Emperor’s became Christian the conversion or pseudo-conversion of people increased amongst those wanting Imperial jobs or offices especially after 395 when Theodosius imposed harsh penalties on Pagans.
Paganism declined over the next centuries, reserved for a small minority of nobles and an undetermined number of the rural folk. By the time that Justinian closed the Academy in the 530s Paganism had no power anymore.
By 768, a century before the Old Gods? I suspect there may be a few provinces which are Hellenic, possibly in Greece, Sicily or the Balkans. I suspect there won’t be any more than a couple and no characters will start with that religion.
Unlike with Zoroastrianism, Paganism had been an official dead letter for 3 centuries before Charlemagne and reduced only to clinging on to fringes of Empire. And of course, Zoroastrianism survives to the present, whilst Hellenic Paganism does not.
You know that that there are people that practice Hellenismos/Hellenic Paganism to day?
No and yes; it is by no means new-agey, the reconstruction faiths are not new agey, but yes it is a reconstruction. But I was contending his point that it does not exist, while it is not exactly the same* but then again no religion is the same in the past.
*which is hard to say as the religion of greece could be rather different from region to region
But in either case, while there may not be any ruling Hellenic pagans at this time, there might be a province or two that starts off as hellenic, and it would be a fun goal to try and revive the faith, ala Julian the Philosopher.
I bring back my question, if Hellenic Paganism was to be implemented what sort of mechanics would one want to see IG for it?
I was under the impression that even then,he was acknowledged by other patriarchs as first amongst equals, much like how the Patriarch of Constantinople is regarded modern day by other patriarchs, and was there to mediate disputes when there's one between the different patriarchs.
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Am I the only one who's excited to play a pre-Christianized Balkans? For some reason, leading a pagan Serbia to conquer the Byzantines sounds like fun.
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