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Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom!

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There are several parts of the warfare in this game which make little to no sense, and the one I'd like to talk about here is characters not defending their own realms.

I used sanctioned loopholes to claim some counties in a neighboring realm and off to war we go. None of them are the domain of the top ruler, they belong to one of his dukes, who is doing absolutely nothing about this. So much so that he even declared war on another vassal within the Kingdom I'm at war with and raised his army for that war. Since I was right beside him I killed his army which was worth 0 warscore. All up, this is just silly.

Now let's compare this to my first game of Crusader Kings 3 where I took one of the recommend starts, the Duchy of Bohemia in 1066. Pretty early one of my castles came under siege despite me not being at war, "wtf?". With some clicking around I figured out that these armies belonged to the Kingdom of Hungary, who had declared war on the Holy Roman Emperor for...the Duchy of Bohemia..."Oh hell no f***er! That's mine!" I raised my armies and defended myself, as any sane person would do.

For further comparison let's go to real history, which this game is supposedly based on. Please tell me about that time in the 100 years war when the Duke of Normandy totally just allowed the English to Chevauchée his lands because the war was against the King of France, not himself. Or tell me about that time in the 30 years war when the Bavarians just allowed the Swedes and French to ravage their land because the war was against the Austrians.

This is one area where the game has massive missed potential. Who is going to participate in the war how much and who is owed what for it has so much potential to model feudal politics. Vassals should care more or less about the war depending on how affected they are, how much they like those affected, whether or not they have been directly attacked, there should be back and forth as to whether the ruler has to grant privileges to vassals in return for them actually helping or if the liege is able to use the war to justify centralization of the realm...it goes on.
 
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lesleylai

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Yeah, this is a problem for both ck2 and ck3. Vassals defending their own land is also good to mitigate player blobing, as it makes offensive war more difficult.
 
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Rubidium

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CK2 had vassals whose land was the target of a foreign war get +100 opinion with their liege, which translated to an increased supply of levies (as vassal levy contribution was proportional to opinion) to represent the vassal actively supporting their liege.

In CK3, opinion isn't directly tied to vassal levy contribution (outside of clans), and levies are mostly useless (unlike CK2, where they were a mix of regular troop types like Heavy Infantry or Archers or Light Cavalry, depending on the vassals' own buildings and cost their liege no upkeep, as opposed to CK3 where they are their own type of largely useless and expensive soldiers).
 
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I agree with the OP. There does need to be a system where vassals defend their liege beyond here is my percentage of levies especially in defensive wars where the vassal will likely lose their land etc.
 
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cosmeIII

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I have to agree, I generally go to war with an enemy realm when their liege is weak, not taking into account any of his vassals. So they could have 5 powerful dukes who are all at +100 opinion and fully loyal but it doesn't really matter because the liege's low martial renders the country weak militarily. Plus, dukes make it so you get fewer levies as they take their cut of the pie from their counts before handing it over to you.

War has to be revised from the ground up. The current system where you get X% of your vassals' levies is simply not cutting it after the men-at-arms system was implemented.

Defensive wars where land might get annexed should bring in the vassal whose land is about to be annexed.

Wars to take the throne away from the King should bring in every single vassal that is a loyalist.

When an offensive war starts, loyal vassals and vassals who stand to gain something from it should join the king with their levies.

For the most part, vassals who join the war should 'attach' their levies to the King's army, following it around without causing attrition.
 
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Darsara

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I was fighting a king, broke of a siege stack, and the Duke I was besieging suddenly raised and army in his other country and wipped my siege stack before my other army could reach them. His land was not part of the war goal. So, sometimes vassals will fight in their lieges wars, I guess.

Annoying part was, while I caught his army and killed it, since he wasn't a primary participant, it didn't count for war-score.
 

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I have to agree, I generally go to war with an enemy realm when their liege is weak, not taking into account any of his vassals. So they could have 5 powerful dukes who are all at +100 opinion and fully loyal but it doesn't really matter because the liege's low martial renders the country weak militarily. Plus, dukes make it so you get fewer levies as they take their cut of the pie from their counts before handing it over to you.

War has to be revised from the ground up. The current system where you get X% of your vassals' levies is simply not cutting it after the men-at-arms system was implemented.

Defensive wars where land might get annexed should bring in the vassal whose land is about to be annexed.

Wars to take the throne away from the King should bring in every single vassal that is a loyalist.

When an offensive war starts, loyal vassals and vassals who stand to gain something from it should join the king with their levies.

For the most part, vassals who join the war should 'attach' their levies to the King's army, following it around without causing attrition.
If you want vassals to join their liege's wars and civil wars.
Check the mods "Loyal to a Fault" and "Useful liege/vassal alliances.
 
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I was fighting a king, broke of a siege stack, and the Duke I was besieging suddenly raised and army in his other country and wipped my siege stack before my other army could reach them. His land was not part of the war goal. So, sometimes vassals will fight in their lieges wars, I guess.

Annoying part was, while I caught his army and killed it, since he wasn't a primary participant, it didn't count for war-score.
maybe he just want to take that chance to overthrow his liege?
do you see him in the war view?
 

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I was fighting a king, broke of a siege stack, and the Duke I was besieging suddenly raised and army in his other country and wipped my siege stack before my other army could reach them. His land was not part of the war goal. So, sometimes vassals will fight in their lieges wars, I guess.

Annoying part was, while I caught his army and killed it, since he wasn't a primary participant, it didn't count for war-score.
If their army is raised for some other war (or to squash raiders or whatever) then they will fight anyone hostile to them (including invaders).

But that's more a sign of the AI's inability to understand warscore; it's the same phenomenon that sees them regularly besiege allies of the primary war target (or, in extreme cases, enemies of the primary war target in a separate war), despite it not giving war score, because the AI has an army and sees "enemy" and goes "must attack."
 
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maybe he just want to take that chance to overthrow his liege?
do you see him in the war view?

If their army is raised for some other war (or to squash raiders or whatever) then they will fight anyone hostile to them (including invaders).

Nope and nope; the Duke was not at war or hostile to anyone else, liege, co-vassal or foreign. He only raised a force after I left my siege stack under defended and went right for them. Didn't do anyting after that, when the area of the fighting moved off his land. And he destroyed my onagers, so war score didn't really matter for this case, since I need to let them reinforce then march them to front liens again. I guess I really did sight a unicorn in the wild.
 

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The problem is, due to the way knights and MAA work in CK3, the number of participants in a war is a huge factor, and often more significant than the number of troops. This would make attacking highly vassalage-nested counties disproportionally difficult, as the knights and MAA of the count, the duke, the king and the emperor could add up to a force that no other ruler other than a min-maxing player could oppose. Though the current implementation is in some ways nonsensical, it works, and it is much simpler for players to approximate how difficult a war might be. Some of you might not see the last part as a virtue, but for a new player to suddenly be jumped by an (for them) unbeatable doomstack when declaring their first war against a ruler supposedly weaker than them would be a very likely quit and refund moment - and no game can live and thrive without new players.
That is something to keep in mind in these discussions - for us to continue to enjoy the game being developed, it must be approachable to new players and retain them.
 
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Though the current implementation is in some ways nonsensical, it works, and it is much simpler for players to approximate how difficult a war might be. Some of you might not see the last part as a virtue, but for a new player to suddenly be jumped by an (for them) unbeatable doomstack when declaring their first war against a ruler supposedly weaker than them would be a very likely quit and refund moment - and no game can live and thrive without new players.
This is merely a UI problem. If the war declaration screen simply communicated the strength of the enemy you will actually face, it'd be fine. There's no reason (other than Paradox's chronically low standards of UX) that it would be a surprise when vassals join in the defense.
 
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This is merely a UI problem. If the war declaration screen simply communicated the strength of the enemy you will actually face, it'd be fine. There's no reason (other than Paradox's chronically low standards of UX) that it would be a surprise when vassals join in the defense.
That is only half of the issue - the other half is the disproportionate impact the number of participants has on war. Both would need to be addressed before vassals joining the wars of their lieges when their lands are at stake in Ck3 is anything more than a haphazard , unimplementable dream.
 
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Tiax

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That is only half of the issue - the other half is the disproportionate impact the number of participants has on war. Both would need to be addressed before vassals joining the wars of their lieges when their lands are at stake in Ck3 is anything more than a haphazard , unimplementable dream.
I mean, yeah. Obviously changes to the way wars work require accompanying balance changes. I assumed that was implicit in the proposal.
 
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cosmeIII

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The problem is, due to the way knights and MAA work in CK3, the number of participants in a war is a huge factor, and often more significant than the number of troops. This would make attacking highly vassalage-nested counties disproportionally difficult, as the knights and MAA of the count, the duke, the king and the emperor could add up to a force that no other ruler other than a min-maxing player could oppose. Though the current implementation is in some ways nonsensical, it works, and it is much simpler for players to approximate how difficult a war might be. Some of you might not see the last part as a virtue, but for a new player to suddenly be jumped by an (for them) unbeatable doomstack when declaring their first war against a ruler supposedly weaker than them would be a very likely quit and refund moment - and no game can live and thrive without new players.
That is something to keep in mind in these discussions - for us to continue to enjoy the game being developed, it must be approachable to new players and retain them.
New players won't be jumped because the UI and the nested tooltips will tell them that their probability to win is low and how to fix that (Make your larger vassals happy, build more men-at-arms, sow discord in the enemy realm).

As for vassalage-stacking, that's why vassal limits exists, war would have to be rebalanced in general to accomodate the new system, that's a given. Plus, it's easier to keep a few vassals happy than many vassals happy, so you trade off some army potential in order to avoid having to befriend and spam gifts towards 10-20 people.

This would also allow more war-focused gameplay for other types of characters. Diplo kings can now focus on making their vassals happy to keep the realm knit together (right now, their only chance to win wars is by allying foreign realms which is cool on its own, but the only option), intrigue kings can rev up the hooks machine to keep their vassals fighting the wars together with them.
 
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Hey everyone,

Thanks a lot for sharing your feedback about Vassals & Warfare! :)
As always, no promise, but this is something we have escalated to the development team.

Cheers, keep posting great threads!
 
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