Character building - There are *really* bad choices.

[Oddhermit]

From a combination of what I've read and observed from playing(and restarting several times) so far(correct me if I'm wrong anywhere) -

- Lore can't be gained in combat(?) but is super duper useful stat so maximizing it with character creation and training is ideal. I should max lore at the beginning, and every time I level up I should train lore.

- Some experience from quests is split amongst the skills you've used, so it's ideal to avoid experimenting with any skills you won't be using. Also, when choosing multiple weapons for combat styles in character creation, the game auto-levels both, so it's best to avoid that and pick two of the same thing.

- Because sigils are easy/cheaply accessed, magic staves are awful, and lore is limited to 50 at start, there's really no reason to pick any of the magic combat styles unless you desperately want 1 talent in the magic tree instead of two in something else.

- The talents that allow you to use dodge or parry to cover both are super good, and should be gotten ASAP, ideally without using the other skill somehow - easy for parry, harder for dodge.

- In the early game, NPC armor levels make it so the only good weapons big two handers. This may change later but from what I've read it doesn't.

- I don't see the point in shields at all, they give a small number of parry and dodge but it's a huge damage trade-off for something so trivial that doesn't appear to scale defensively and a single long lasting illusion spell gives way more than a shield does. There are a few shield abilities but they don't seem to come anywhere close to making the trade-offs worth it.

- You can level faster if you gain more low level skills and spread yourself thin, but it will mess up your companion leveling and things get weird. Since enemies also scale, you can potentially end up relatively behind in the skills that matter like parry or dodge so you don't get smashed. That said, I haven't tried a speedy leveling tactic yet and magic doesn't seem to rely much on skills so it might be something to try.

- Experience can be farmed with heal over time against weak enemies. Leveling up parry and dodge by sitting in combat seems to be a thing you can do to bring a squishy character up to par, or potentially just make yourself an overpowered tank.

_____


Overall I'm really disappointed in the character building system. Pillars of Eternity was pretty solid relatively, this feels like there are many genuinely bad choices you can make at the beginning of the game, and several ways to screw your character up or have yourself or companions over or under-leveled.

The rest of the game I like, but it's been hard as someone who's a bit of a perfectionist with character builds to deal with the metagamey mess that I'm confronted with from the beginning of the game. I restarted many times because skills I didn't want to level got leveled, I leveled up before reaching a trainer, my companions leveled in some weird skill, etc. etc. It feels like I have to micromanage way too much.

 

[AndreaColombo]

Lore can be actually gained in combat by using spells or Lore-based skills.

It is also worth noting that you don't need to have a constantly stellar Lore for the purpose of casting spells. Once a spell is created and assigned to a character, that character will be able to cast it indefinitely even if their Lore score drops; hence, you only need to buff your Lore once to make the spells you want.

IME, it can make sense to train Lore every time you level up if you are focusing on other combat skills (e.g. if you are trying to farm 2H/1H/DW and Parry XP from combat by avoiding magic until 21st level), but that requires building the Infirmary Spire upgrade right away which can be sub-optimal as it delays the Forge quite a bit. It's a trade-off between training Lore or getting item upgrades and really good crafted items sooner.

 

[tacodiscussions]

- I don't see the point in shields at all, they give a small number of parry and dodge but it's a huge damage trade-off for something so trivial that doesn't appear to scale defensively and a single long lasting illusion spell gives way more than a shield does. There are a few shield abilities but they don't seem to come anywhere close to making the trade-offs worth it.

Mirror Image loses power as you get hit though. Also, the Azure Shield grants dramatic amounts of parry: +40 from the buff, +20 base if masterwork (there's higher than this, but the buff <3), which is another 8 or 16 via the Shield Mastery talents, so all in all up to 76 parry. Plus the small endurance bonus, I guess.

 

[Raz415]

Can't say I see your point, shields are doing their job - making your tanks a lot tankier. Not sure why you'd look a gift horse in the mouth like that, for the small price of +0.2s recovery you can have a lot of defense, I wouldn't complain.

Magic staves are not at all awful, playing a staff AA build imbued by lots of different things is legit. Your AAs can hit 3 times for every possible elemental damage, plus whatever crit effects you have going on, it can be quite crazy.

Lore does level up as you use skills, but if you're not maxing out lore as a spell slinging mage... why are you even playing a mage?

 

[AndreaColombo]

Lore does level up as you use skills, but if you're not maxing out lore as a spell slinging mage... why are you even playing a mage?

You don't have to play a Mage to benefit from Lore; you can play a melee character and use magic to buff yourself. I do that all the time. 180 is about as high as you need your Lore to be for your buffs to get all the best perks except Accuracy.

 

[Oddhermit]

Lore can be actually gained in combat by using spells or Lore-based skills.

It is also worth noting that you don't need to have a constantly stellar Lore for the purpose of casting spells. Once a spell is created and assigned to a character, that character will be able to cast it indefinitely even if their Lore score drops; hence, you only need to buff your Lore once to make the spells you want.

IME, it can make sense to train Lore every time you level up if you are focusing on other combat skills (e.g. if you are trying to farm 2H/1H/DW and Parry XP from combat by avoiding magic until 21st level), but that requires building the Infirmary Spire upgrade right away which can be sub-optimal as it delays the Forge quite a bit. It's a trade-off between training Lore or getting item upgrades and really good crafted items sooner.

Yeah it seems like it's mostly with damage spells though - using Illusion and VIgor buffs seemed to only raise their respective controls. Or perhaps they just don't raise lore as quickly/noticeably?

I wasn't avoiding magic, just not using it for damage and most of my healing was done with potions and the conquest HoT as well.

Mirror Image loses power as you get hit though. Also, the Azure Shield grants dramatic amounts of parry: +40 from the buff, +20 base if masterwork (there's higher than this, but the buff <3), which is another 8 or 16 via the Shield Mastery talents, so all in all up to 76 parry. Plus the small endurance bonus, I guess.

TBH I may be basing some of this on the early game, but from level 1 to level 6 I haven't found a shield worth using over the superior damage output of a two hander or two decent one handers.

Can't say I see your point, shields are doing their job - making your tanks a lot tankier. Not sure why you'd look a gift horse in the mouth like that, for the small price of +0.2s recovery you can have a lot of defense, I wouldn't complain.

Magic staves are not at all awful, playing a staff AA build imbued by lots of different things is legit. Your AAs can hit 3 times for every possible elemental damage, plus whatever crit effects you have going on, it can be quite crazy.

Lore does level up as you use skills, but if you're not maxing out lore as a spell slinging mage... why are you even playing a mage?

I'm not playing a mage exactly, I've been playing a two hander with magic buffs, and to use sigils and get decent AoE illusion buffs so I didn't have to use illusion on my other party members, it just seemed I had to pump lore up to be efficient at all at spell casting - whereas parry and two handed just raised themselves in combat enough on their own. The AoE effect seems to dramatically raise the lore requirement so it felt like I had to train it every level. Maybe the sigils are just making it seem more important but I really didn't want to put illusion buffs on all my other characters or spend 4 turns buffing them.

____

Anyway, I think the solution to some of these problems - even if they are early game only - would be something like -

#1. Just let us pick our main skills to split our quest XP in during character creation or give us control over it with a check list we can change later. The rest would only gain from usage. That way I wouldn't feel penalized for experimenting or using buff spells from various sigils that I don't really need any skill gains for.

#2. Let us simply choose any two talent points and one sigil(or one good weapon/armor/shield piece for non-magic users) at the beginning of the game, instead of linking them to a bunch of choices. I would much prefer to take some of the other low tier talents than the ones automatically gotten by picking your expertise. Plus, you can't pick an expertise just for a talent or it'll auto-level the skill associated with it - I took dual wield just to get arrow shield early, and never used dual wield or even equipped two weapons but still got dual wield XP. :/ Just... more freedom in early game character building would be nice.

#3. Better armor pen options early in the game, maybe some tweaks to damage/speed so that two handers don't dramatically out-damage everything else at least during act 1.

#4. Make skill gains matter more for some things, as well as Wits perhaps. Buff spell effects are static and I could easily use Illusion, Vigor, Life spells without any of their respective Control Skills at all - in fact it'd be preferable to the game putting my XP in them. It just seems counter-intuitive and like you're being penalized for using the tools at hand - which of course I didn't know going into the game so I had a thinly spread character that leveled too fast. Illusion and Vigor also don't seem to benefit from Wits? I don't get higher deflection or parry bonuses from raising it, only damage/healing. So the stat does nothing for buff focused magic users.

#5. Alternative to #1, let us spend our XP on skills instead of doing it automatically - possibly make it a toggle for players who don't want to deal with a more complex leveling process.

 

[Muwatallis]

So from what I've ready any class/character can learn and use magic, and some of the starting sigils, e.g. frost spells, can be found very early on in the game anyway.
I had planned to make frost spells my primary expertise - is there any benefit to doing this? for example, can you make up later for not putting points into control frost skill during character creation?

 

[Oddhermit]

So from what I've ready any class/character can learn and use magic, and some of the starting sigils, e.g. frost spells, can be found very early on in the game anyway.
I had planned to make frost spells my primary expertise - is there any benefit to doing this? for example, can you make up later for not putting points into control frost skill during character creation?

The frost sigil can be bought almost immediately at the beginning of the game for a rather trivial cost. All of the character creation sigils can, except fire is a bit later but is gotten from conquest rewards instead of expertise.

When making a mage I would still pick two non-mage starting expertise options to get talents instead. There are some useful things in other trees for mages that require X points in their tree to access, so those first two talents even if you never use them are at least going toward something. Like if you take 2x shortbow you can access evasive, or if you take a sword or spear and shield you can get the armor stance in defense, or if you take an agility talent(flurry of blows for example from unarmed or dual wield I think) you could get arrow shield and then maybe riposte which is nice. The only problem is taking a weapon expertise means you spend XP on them even if you don't use them at all - so ideally you take ones you'll actually use the weapon for - which I have trouble with since often the talents I want aren't synced up with the weapon I want. :/

And the two talent options mages get if they double up on a single expertise aren't very good IMO.

 

[tacodiscussions]

TBH I may be basing some of this on the early game, but from level 1 to level 6 I haven't found a shield worth using over the superior damage output of a two hander or two decent one handers.

That doesn't sound wrong. There are people soloing PotD without a shield. If you take a look at the agility tree and the duelist talents though, you might see how high defenses can be turned into more damage.

 

[Dirich]

- I don't see the point in shields at all, they give a small number of parry and dodge but it's a huge damage trade-off for something so trivial that doesn't appear to scale defensively and a single long lasting illusion spell gives way more than a shield does. There are a few shield abilities but they don't seem to come anywhere close to making the trade-offs worth it.

Where is the huge damage trade off? 1h and 2h weapons have the same DPS, with damage-per-hit being higher for 2h, but them being slower, obviously. This difference affects active skills since they (I THINK!) are not based on weapon normalized damage. That is, they check the weapon damage-per-hit rather than the weapon DPS.
But 1h vs 1h+shield vs dual wield? No difference.

Considering that dual wield is pointless from the damage output point of view, since skill damage is the same as 1h and autoattacks alternate between the two weapons instead of doing "simultaneous attacks" from both, your alternatives to 2h are 1h+shield or 1h and nothing in off-hand, where the only difference in damage between having nothing and having a shield (or a second weapon) in the off-hand is the accuracy bonus in the Duelist talents, which means it is at most 30 accuracy.
There are no other talents that affect just one the 3 different "off hand cases".




DAMAGE: 1h VS 2h (if you are interested)
I have run a 2h build which was quite optimized, and I was oneshotting everybody (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/1-hit-1-kill-build-over-1k-crits.991409/) and now I am running a solo PotD with a character with 1h (no offhand in 1st weapon set, 1h + shield in 2nd weapon set) which is fairly optimized too (although I am still unsure if I am correct in thinking you need to "engage" an enemy for Duelist's "Risposte" to work on him, which I am inclined to assume at the moment, which is critical since in a non solo build you have to sacrifice the Imbue talents to pick Blade Wall).
The comparison is hard since the damage you get from Risposte depends on the pack of enemies you are fighting and if you need an enemy to be "engaged" for Risposte to work (which I believe it does).
The advantage of 1h is Risposte, the advantage of 2h is that +% damage gives higher returns to 2h active skills since active skills damage is based on per-hit damage instead of DPS (damage normalized to speed). E.g. +20% damage on 100 average per hit damage weapon with 10 DPS is + 20 damage to be used in active skill formula, while if the weapon is 10 average per hit damage and 10 DPS the +20% damage converts to +2 damage to be used in active skills.
In a game where active skills are spammable, if their damage depends on your weapon and the formula does not normalize weapon damage, then the result is, usually, that 2h builds deal more damage.

Solo run: it's hard to tell, but given that active skills depend on non normalized weapon damage and that risposte is circumstancial, I would say 2h builds are better damage dealers than 1h builds.
Party run: 2h is better, especially considering 1h damage will not be able to pick Blade Wall (again, if I am right in saying engagement matters for response).

 

[tacodiscussions]

although I am still unsure if I am correct in thinking you need to "engage" an enemy for Duelist's "Risposte" to work on him

Nobody needs to engage anyone. He needs to be within your melee range and be meleeing you.

 

[Matroska]

I wonder if this is why I'm finding the game so hard only about 3 minutes in. I made a "double lightning mage" in character creation. I'm playing on Hard with other settings on default. I'm on the fight where the NPC fire mage joins in with you. I have Verse with me (not sure if that's even variable). Verse dies, the 3 NPCs with the fire mage die, the mage has been Near Death for ages but it seems like he can't actually die. I'm just standing there with every enemy NPC still alive. Not sure what I'm doing wrong strategically since I don't seem to have that many options and very few skills. I can go ahead and "win" this fight since the fire mage apparently can't die but it feels like I've done something very wrong.

 

[Dirich]

I wonder if this is why I'm finding the game so hard only about 3 minutes in. I made a "double lightning mage" in character creation. I'm playing on Hard with other settings on default. I'm on the fight where the NPC fire mage joins in with you. I have Verse with me (not sure if that's even variable). Verse dies, the 2 NPCs with the fire mage die, the mage has been Near Death for ages but it seems like he can't actually die. I'm just standing there with every enemy NPC still alive. Not sure what I'm doing wrong strategically since I don't seem to have that many options and very few skills. I can go ahead and "win" this fight since the fire mage apparently can't die but it feels like I've done something very wrong.

My first run I did the same as you: same starting character and difficulty. I guess you need to use a better strategy, like making sure the enemies do not focus only Verse while making sure both you and Verse focus the same enemy (starting from the ones that are weaker). Remember to use potions to heal etc.
The fight is a bit though but it can be done in Path of the Damned difficulty without recruiting verse (I know since I did it, and I am not the only one).

 

[Matroska]

My first run I did the same as you: same starting character and difficulty. I guess you need to use a better strategy, like making sure the enemies do not focus only Verse while making sure both you and Verse focus the same enemy (starting from the ones that are weaker). Remember to use potions to heal etc.
The fight is a bit though but it can be done in Path of the Damned difficulty without recruiting verse (I know since I did it, and I am not the only one).

Well only 2 enemies focused on Verse. The more heavily armoured enemy and one of the two NPCs that stand closest to him. The 2nd of those two NPCs along with the 2 NPCs that run over to the fire mage were all attacking him and his men. I used all her potions. My damage output just seems to very low. Maybe it was just a particularly bad set of rolls. I'm trying it again now.

The one thing I didn't do that you suggested was focusing on the weaker enemies first. I'll do that now.

Edit:
Much better. I took both my character and Verse to attack the 2 enemies attacking the mage and his entourage. They went down quickly. Then we took out the remaining 2 weaker enemies as the tougher enemy got tangled up with our allied NPCs.

 

[Oddhermit]

1. 1h and 2h weapons have the same DPS, with damage-per-hit being higher for 2h, but them being slower, obviously
2. The advantage of 1h is Risposte
3. unsure if I am correct in thinking you need to "engage" an enemy for Duelist's "Risposte" to work on him
4. In a game where active skills are spammable, if their damage depends on your weapon and the formula does not normalize weapon damage, then the result is, usually, that 2h builds deal more damage.
5. Party run: 2h is better

1. DPS on the weapons themselves obviously doesn't represent their practical DPS. The recovery times can also be gotten to the minimum with even 2handers - via talents(Iron Light as Air) or gearing/spells -, and then having the highest damage per hit - especially against armor in the earlier parts of the game - makes 2 handed outclass everything for awhile.

2. Duelist works with two handers. You won't have as high of parry without the shield is all, but high enough to make it work at least. Personally I only dip into 1 point of riposte, the 50% is still pretty solid for a more hybrid build when you're in a party.

3. Nope, there are videos you can see of it in action around, soloers can just sit encircled by enemies as they kill themselves.

4. Yeah, although active skills aren't spammable. You eventually cycle through them without running out of CDs perhaps, but that's not the same as spam exactly. Still, ability damage is probably a factor in 2hander superiority at the moment.

5. Agree.

I wonder if this is why I'm finding the game so hard only about 3 minutes in. I made a "double lightning mage" in character creation. I'm playing on Hard with other settings on default. I'm on the fight where the NPC fire mage joins in with you. I have Verse with me (not sure if that's even variable). Verse dies, the 3 NPCs with the fire mage die, the mage has been Near Death for ages but it seems like he can't actually die. I'm just standing there with every enemy NPC still alive. Not sure what I'm doing wrong strategically since I don't seem to have that many options and very few skills. I can go ahead and "win" this fight since the fire mage apparently can't die but it feels like I've done something very wrong.

The starter lightning spell is pretty weak, I prefer frost myself but in either case you're sitting on a CD doing terrible damage 'cause you're a mage with a single spell...

When I make a mage I grab the Fire Sigil from Conquest because it rocks Act 1 hard enough to be worth missing out on the other unique abilities.

As for the part you're talking about, focus down the javelin thrower that appears lower on the screen. The companion ability she has will do most of the work on him alone, prones and deals lots of damage. Disengage attacks on Verse will happen(may need to use a potion on her) but you don't want to kill the heavy armor guy first. If you kill the Javelineers quicker the friendlies kill their enemies automagically and help you against the heavy armored dude. I'd also start Verse off in her dodge stance, and the PC can be a bit behind/in stealth to not get attacked if you're squishy.

 

[player1 fanatic]

If I you want to "feel" as nuker mage in Act 1, it is best to get double frost (frost has best damage dealing spells), in order to get free talent in Magic tree and then take Fire Sigil in Conquest.

Then, with just one level up, get talent that gives extra +2 spells. Then get Lighting Sigil from one of the merchant. With this setup you could have 4-6 elemental spells ready for offense.

 

[Oddhermit]

If I you want to "feel" as nuker mage in Act 1, it is best to get double frost (frost has best damage dealing spells), in order to get free talent in Magic tree and then take Fire Sigil in Conquest.

Then, with just one level up, get talent that gives extra +2 spells. Then get Lighting Sigil from one of the merchant. With this setup you could have 4-6 elemental spells ready for offense.

Frost Sigil is like 5 bronze rings in act 1, dirt cheap and you can buy it before you even hit level 2. The fire sigil OTOH is definitely convenient enough to take over the other two abilities even though you'll eventually get it. Though I find Act 1 is all about using the companion abilities wisely and frequently since they're quite powerful early on.

The magic talent isn't really free, opportunity cost is having 1 talent instead of 2 at the beginning. If the other trees weren't good for mage it'd be a tougher choice but I'd rather have 2 talents in Power/Range/Agility than 1 in Magic. 2x any weapon talent lets you grab nice things in other trees that you'll eventually want. Like Stance: Blitz in Power for example is nice - or if you're going tanky you can get the Guard or Challenger Stance in defense.

Losing 1 talent isn't the end of the world I know, but I just... can't do it, it would bother me the rest of the game. I think we should just get two talents to spend freely, and a sigil/weapon set to go with our choices instead of lumping it all together.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Well, getting talents in other trees also means getting waste in weapons skills you do not need if you want to be a "true" mage.

For example, you may eventually dip into power tree to get blitz stance, but getting that talent in character creation means getting skill that is only useful with one handed or two handed weapons, plus skill points in two handlers, that will dilute your XP gains, which is IMHO bigger waste for someone that does not want to touch those weapons.

Double frost for me, is the only thing that makes sense for "signature" mage, because in adds progress in magic tree. Gives you useful talent with progress with magic so you can get +2 spell slots with single level up, and experience being true mage very quickly in the game. And nothing bad with saving 5 bronze rings, that can be used to buy some other equipment early when money is scarce.

Of course, if you like playing hybrid that buffs his weapon skills with magic, that is perfectly fine. It's just not a "signature" mage for me.

 

[Dirich]

1. DPS on the weapons themselves obviously doesn't represent their practical DPS. The recovery times can also be gotten to the minimum with even 2handers - via talents(Iron Light as Air) or gearing/spells -, and then having the highest damage per hit - especially against armor in the earlier parts of the game - makes 2 handed outclass everything for awhile.

"speed buffs", like +% damage, always give advantage to slow 2h weapons if skills are active and if there are lower limits for the "recovery" speed. Both of which are true in this game.
I would hence say that these factor make 2h the better weapon the more you go into the game (as you get more and better buffs).

To be more precise about armor:
Here we have both a mechanic for miss (in a general sense) and for damage reduction.
While miss is pretty much indifferent to the "average damage" debate, in the sense that it does not favor 1h or 2h, damage reduction would normally favor 2h vs a dual wield, if dual wield happened to attack twice, which is not the case in Tyranny.
I assume damage reduction gets applied AFTER the total damage (using multipliers for Imbue, e.g.) is computed, and since it gets applied once per attack, once both 1h and 2h reach the lower possible recovery time, the effect is identical, since the number of hits is identical.
Ergo, what you say about 2h having advantage early on is true in this regard.

Overall, the first topic gives 2h advantage later on and is fairly neutral at the beginning (for lack of +% damage and 1h being unable to hit the minimum recovery), the second one gives advantage to 2h early on and is neutral later on. So 2h always have clear advantage, as we both agreed upon already.

2. Duelist works with two handers. You won't have as high of parry without the shield is all, but high enough to make it work at least. Personally I only dip into 1 point of riposte, the 50% is still pretty solid for a more hybrid build when you're in a party.

Only the risposte, not the accuracy part, if we want to be precise.
Regardless, what I was getting at in that comment of mine was that a 2h player going for Power+Magic to maximize single target damage and 1shot everybody won't have the points to get the talent. I should have been more precise in my exposition.
Of course it makes sense to build for less single hit damage, giving up the deep talents in Power, to get Response in order to run a solo build that can take more easily on groups.

4. Yeah, although active skills aren't spammable. You eventually cycle through them without running out of CDs perhaps, but that's not the same as spam exactly. Still, ability damage is probably a factor in 2hander superiority at the moment.

That is what I meant by spammable: you can constantly use active abilities and never have to be idlying auto-attacking. I guess we use different jargon, but we agree on the point.

 

[aimlessgun]

Well, getting talents in other trees also means getting waste in weapons skills you do not need if you want to be a "true" mage.

For example, you may eventually dip into power tree to get blitz stance, but getting that talent in character creation means getting skill that is only useful with one handed or two handed weapons, plus skill points in two handlers, that will dilute your XP gains, which is IMHO bigger waste for someone that does not want to touch those weapons.

Double frost for me, is the only thing that makes sense for "signature" mage, because in adds progress in magic tree. Gives you useful talent with progress with magic so you can get +2 spell slots with single level up, and experience being true mage very quickly in the game. And nothing bad with saving 5 bronze rings, that can be used to buy some other equipment early when money is scarce.

In the middle of my solo PotD run right now and double frost + fire conquest is what I eventually settled on starting with, because of these reasons. Also double frost gives you +10 lore which is extremely significant early game.

'Losing' a talent point actually isn't that big of a deal because Energy Shield is quite good and the other attack talents you'd get are useless. The only one that actually helps is a Power one to get a stance, but the agility one doesn't matter because you'll want Lightfoot anyways and that will unlock Arrow Shield (for non-solo though Lightfoot isn't needed so the Agility talent becomes helpful again).