Changing culture, permanently integrating cultures and more culture based suggestions

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Finardin

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Feb 14, 2020
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I want there to be a path to changing culture ingame. If an integrated culture is permanently integrated (I'll get to what I mean later), have Noble Civic Rights and is bigger than your primary culture you should be able to switch primary culture over time.

Right now it's too easy to integrate a culture, that should be very difficult, but when you have integrated a culture or a culture group it should give more benefits and make it easier to integrate other cultures in the future. One way to do this is to make the negative impact on happiness go down (to zero) over time (fast at 100 stability, not at all at 0 stability). A permanently integrated culture would be a culture that no longer affect the pop happiness negatively at the cultures current integration status (Citizen or Noble). I believe the senate should be involved in integrating cultures and that the more integrated cultures or culture groups you have the easier it will be to integrate more cultures, ie making the cost lower and making the integration faster. If the senate is disloyal you should not be able to integrate a culture or culture group.

When all is in equilibrium the primary culture should always be more happy than other integrated cultures. Ie the primary culture should get more happiness from being integrated thanothe integrated cultures. This is not the case now as easing restrictions on Citizenship decreases their happiness and their seems to not be any bonus to being the primary culture or even to have Noble rights.

Other cultures should overtime stop being sad if another culture has a honor guard.

There should be a map mode for integrated cultures (that show places that have some) integrated cultures this would make it easier to know where to expand if you have integrated a culture that is very spread out.
 
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Right now it's too easy to integrate a culture, that should be very difficult, but when you have integrated a culture or a culture group it should give more benefits and make it easier to integrate other cultures in the future.

Indeed, same culture groups of an integrated culture should be integrated like know. Trying to integrate a culture from a new culture group will require something more than time and negative stability. I think you should have at least characters from that culture in your government or as governors to show your willingness to work with that people. Also, the player will need to designate a city as cultural capital for that culture before it can be integrated (if it is from a different group than the already integrated cultures). Each different culture group should contribute with characters, have a capital city and behave as a country inside a country before integrating. When integrated, that culture group will need to keep these conditions or the whole culture group will have a negative happiness impact and culture civil wars can happen.

The primary culture should always be more happy than other integrated cultures

Not sure about this. If you have favored other cultures with decisions, your primary culture can be upset and rightfully so. What I would like to see is more consequences for any culture being under 50% happiness for a long period of time.

There should be a map mode for integrated cultures (that show places that have some) integrated cultures this would make it easier to know where to expand if you have integrated a culture that is very spread out.

That would be nice to have
 
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Not sure about this. If you have favored other cultures with decisions, your primary culture can be upset and rightfully so. What I would like to see is more consequences for any culture being under 50% happiness for a long period of time.

I disagree. Were Romans upset 50 years after the italians gained citizenship? It's unrealistic. After some time people get used to the new status quo.
 
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I disagree. Were Romans upset 50 years after the italians gained citizenship? It's unrealistic. After some time people get used to the new status quo.

I think they lost their language and culture with time, they were not integrated, they were assimilated. The game mechanic only allows to integrate or assimilate. But in Italy what happened is that they were given rights and then they were assimilated. Social War (Italian) - Wikipedia

You can achieve this outcome in the game, not integrating the italic cultures but assimilating them faster with decisions like intermarriage, and other decisions that improve their happiness while they are assimilated.
 
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I think they lost their language and culture with time, they were not integrated, they were assimilated. The game mechanic only allows to integrate or assimilate. But in Italy what happened is that they were given rights and then they were assimilated. Social War (Italian) - Wikipedia

You can achieve this outcome in the game, not integrating the italic cultures but assimilating them faster with decisions like intermarriage, and other decisions that improve their happiness while they are assimilated.

We could argue about the specifics of this as I would disagree that the italians were assimilated by the romans. The Romans integrated ocultures and I don't believe the romans were sad afterwards. Integration will make people upset short term but definitely not long term. This should be represented in the game.
 
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Not sure about this. If you have favored other cultures with decisions, your primary culture can be upset and rightfully so. What I would like to see is more consequences for any culture being under 50% happiness for a long period of time.

I just realised that you misinterpreted what I wrote (I didn't explain it properly).

I meant that when all is "as it should be" the primary culture should always be more happy than other integrated cultures. Ie the primary culture should get more happiness from being integrated thanothe integrated cultures.
I will edit my post.
 
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I just realised that you misinterpreted what I wrote (I didn't explain it properly).

I meant that when all is "as it should be" the primary culture should always be more happy than other integrated cultures. Ie the primary culture should get more happiness from being integrated thanothe integrated cultures.
I will edit my post.

That concept 'as it should be' is something worth debating, because it is not clear nor settled:

 
That concept 'as it should be' is something worth debating, because it is not clear nor settled:


I'm not here to argue politics. As it should be means in equilibrium.
 
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I want there to be a path to changing culture ingame.

Some TAGs should have this as part of their mission/decision system. And it would be nice to have a system where you can say, Hellenise or Iranianise, similarly to how a tribe can become a Monarchy or Republic.

But thats not what you mean, and I don't really see a basis for just being able to switch because an integrated culture is bigger. Do you have an example where people did this?

I believe the senate should be involved in integrating cultures and that the more integrated cultures or culture groups you have the easier it will be to integrate more cultures, ie making the cost lower and making the integration faster.

This does sound sensible, the more you integrate the more you develop a culture of cultural integration.

Not sure about this. If you have favored other cultures with decisions, your primary culture can be upset and rightfully so. What I would like to see is more consequences for any culture being under 50% happiness for a long period of time.

I think this should in part depend on your culture. Supremacist cultures like Hellenes and Romans should rightfully be outraged if lesser peoples get elevated by the state. The Egyptians too seemed to think themselves superior to others, but the Macedonians already seemed more tolerant, perhaps because they themselves were still not fully accepted as Hellenes even after Alexander's conquest. And the Seleukids continued much of the Persian style of rule, including integrating multiple peoples into their administrative structure (Persians to a Noble level). Other cultures should take a less severe hit and perhaps have greater capacity to integrate cultures, especially of their own culture group or those with similar belief systems. (Persians accepting east Iranians like Bactrians and Sogdians for example)

Heck, Persians would probably have their Legitimacy in part tied to integrating as many cultures as possible.

But this warrants changing cultures away from something static, which by itself could open up a whole load of doors for improvement of one of PDX's (as a whole) most bland systems. A small step in making cultures more interesting is already being made with the way Culture and Levies interact, so hopefully Imperator might become the first game to break open this stale culture system, which the Hellenistic period is absolutely perfect for!

Each different culture group should contribute with characters,

Yes, though I think the chance of characters from that culture should depend on the level, with Citizen it being rare, but at Noble it should probably prompt you to accept a great house of their culture, or at least make this much more likely.

have a capital city and behave as a country inside a country before integrating.

This though, I disagree with. Many cultures designate larger groups of peoples with similar culture, but many cultures are not 1 people and have many internal subdvisions, which in some cases clearly disliked one another. And I don't see the historical basis for a cultural capital. Country within a country as a mechanic sounds perfect for internal vassal states, though. (Satrapies, internal tribal lands, etc)
 
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Yes, though I think the chance of characters from that culture should depend on the level, with Citizen it being rare, but at Noble it should probably prompt you to accept a great house of their culture, or at least make this much more likely.

Agree, integrating cultures at noble level should have a great house of that culture. What will happen with marriages? Which culture predominates? The male one?

Country within a country as a mechanic sounds perfect for internal vassal states, though. (Satrapies, internal tribal lands, etc)

You are right.

Imperator might become the first game to break open this stale culture system, which the Hellenistic period is absolutely perfect for!

This is different from changing your nation primary culture. This means a new mechanic besides assimilation. If it is not through conquest and assimilation, how was culture changed in the Hellenistic period?

I think this should in part depend on your culture. Supremacist cultures like Hellenes and Romans should rightfully be outraged if lesser peoples get elevated by the state. The Egyptians too seemed to think themselves superior to others, but the Macedonians already seemed more tolerant, perhaps because they themselves were still not fully accepted as Hellenes even after Alexander's conquest. And the Seleukids continued much of the Persian style of rule, including integrating multiple peoples into their administrative structure (Persians to a Noble level). Other cultures should take a less severe hit and perhaps have greater capacity to integrate cultures, especially of their own culture group or those with similar belief systems. (Persians accepting east Iranians like Bactrians and Sogdians for example)

Heck, Persians would probably have their Legitimacy in part tied to integrating as many cultures as possible.

Definitively, the game shall differentiate this type of attitude to other cultures for each nation. This will allow for historically cultural integrating civilizations game-play and vice-versa.
 
I think there is a bug because the noble integrated cultures penalty is not applied to all cultures.

For example, in the picture below we see:

  • Brigantic has 50% integrated culture + 12% major power + 10% No census taxes for Citizens or Nobles - 4% Number of Integrated Cultures - 5% number of noblility* cultures = 63%
  • Hibernian has 50% integrated culture + 12% major power + 10% No census taxes for Citizens or Nobles - 4% Number of Integrated Cultures + 3% Honor Guard = 71%
However, the tooltip says 'Each additional culture with Noble Civil Rights will give -5%'. As there is another culture with noble rights, Hibernian should be penalized with -5% number of nobility cultures = 66%.

Is this working as intended?

If this is a mistake, and you enact all decisions for your primary culture and other integrated cultures to nobility, you get the primary culture happiness on top:

  • Brigantic = 75% (integrated culture, major power, no census taxes, number of integrated cultures, number of nobility cultures, right of appeal, protected land rights)
  • Hibernian = 72% (integrated culture, major power, no census taxes, number of integrated cultures, number of nobility cultures, honor guard, patronage)

(I am not sure if Hibernian could get a +5% from Promote Citizen Administrators from another culture of the same group, I don't think so)

primary culture happiness.png


* the tooltip has an error, Noblilty instead of Nobility
 
What will happen with marriages? Which culture predominates? The male one?

Good point, in a marriage, I think people would retain their own culture, but could switch to the primary culture via events. The problem with children is again - static cultures.

If it is not through conquest and assimilation, how was culture changed in the Hellenistic period?

Cultural change was generally very slow and took place over centuries, and often was a two way street. Hellenic cultural prestige had many states adopt elements of their culture, such as styles of coinage, dress, elements of their urban culture, deities (even if it was just putting a Hellenic name on a non-Hellenic deity), cultic practices, names, and language.

Its a difficult question to answer, so I will just give some examples of non-conquest cultural changes:

Pontic Cappadocia Hellenised to a large degree (but also Iranianised a bit further) by its own volition, emulating both Greek and Iranian culture under the Mithradatids. Coinage in the Greek style was adopted, however these were not without Iranian influences either (a common theme also in places conquered by Alexander). Similarly, while many women were given Greek names, the entire male line kept Iranian names, and the same goes for many male relatives. The religiously the kingdom was a mix of Anatolian, Iranian, and later some Greek elements adopted voluntarily because it was, in essence, hip. The Greek language also seems to have become dominant amongst the elites at some point, yet when Strabo (a native) gives us the lay of the land, is clear that the average person in Pontus is still very much Cappadocian, and that the Tauric Cappadocians and Pontic Cappadocians in his mind (and he's personally been to Tauric Cappadocia as well) are the same people.

So even as the Iranianized elites Hellenized to some degree as well, the Pops were still Cappadocian. And what culture does that make the elites? Persian? Greek (what kind?) But on other levels they were still Anatolian as well, Pontus did not develop Greek style cities, its military had strong local elements (and even picked up the good old Scythed Chariots at one point!). And the state itself seems to have been quite Anatolian in its structure too.

In Pisidia on the other hand, voluntary Hellenization went all-out, however here towns (developing into cities along a Greek model over time). And while our knowledge of rural Pisidian culture is non-existent, the cities by the end of the game have almost entirely Hellenized to the point where its hard to not classify them as Greek, including language, customs, social systems, forms of rule, you name it. The Pisidians seemed to have been a very decentralized group, encompassing many tribal- and later city-states with territories of varying sizes, and super fond of their autonomy. Yet unlike many other cultures of Anatolia that had been in direct contact with Greeks for centuries (Carians, Lydians, Lycians, etc), and who also Hellenized more quickly after Alexander's conquest, but for whom the process had already been ongoing for a while, there is little to no evidence of any Pisidian-Hellenic interactions and thus nothing to speed up. (Though, part of the earlier interactions between Anatolians and Greeks was both ways, with especially the Carians, Phrygians, and Lydians leaving their marks on Greek culture too)

In game terms, they Hellenized completely, and not to Macedonian Greek culture, or the nearer Doric or Ionian cultures, but Aeolian, since the archaeology shows many elements we also see in Pergamon. Yet much of this seems to have happened after the Attalid period, with only a few centres actively being Hellenized by the Pergamene kings. What seems to have happened is, due to the internal rivalry of the Pisidians, and the cultural prestige of Hellenism and in particular the Attalids (from the Pisidian p.o.v.) is that the other Pisidian cities were copying the original centres of Hellenic culture in an attempt to essentially out-Hellene one another.

And finally, the perhaps ultimate example of why culture needs work: the beloved Armenia. Which comes in 3 (or 4, but I'm not dealing with Commagene with its Anatolian-Armenian-Mesopotamian-Hellenic-Iranian culture) variations Lesser Armenia, Greater Armenia, and Sophene (still attached to Greater Armenia at the start, also sometimes called Lesser Armenia as well). Sophene seems to have Hellenised much faster then Greater Armenia (likely due to the closer contact with Hellenic cultures and the trade route flowing through it), even while it was part of it. With Greek culture in ascendance, to this part of Armenia it made sense to Hellenise to some degree because not just prestige, but also commerce (similarly, how many parts of Indonesia became Muslim, because it was convenient for trade, a new thing and became cool amongst the elites). Greater Armenia itself took much longer, and only really started to Hellenise when the Seleukids killed off its king, and even then it was still mixed with Iranian and Semitic elements and mostly second-hand. It was also very ineffective, and likely never left the elite sphere.

So within 1 state, amongst the same peoples (Iranianised Armenians), Hellenisation happens differently in different halves of the country. And other parts Iranianized further as well, because Iranian culture still held quite a lot of prestige in the region. And no Armenians, not even the elites, ever became something resembling Greek, during this time.

Yet in game, none of this nuance is present. Pops are either one culture, or another. Yet being part Hellenised seems to have had some extent of positive influence on Hellenic pops, as did being part Iranianised on Iranian pops. So what do I think could be done in game?


Without putting a lot of time in it, since it would require quite a bit of research to do well:

I've said this before, but I'd like to see a kind of cultural prestige/influence system. Build Judea into a mighty state, your culture (or culture group) starts to become more prestigious, which starts to keep the influence of other cultures in check. This starts to push your influence to nearby states as well, which eventually allows them to access bonuses related to your culture. On the other hand, their influence on you also gives you the option to select bonuses depending on the culture. You can do this actively, essetially embracing a foreign culture, which increases its influence, or keep it at bay, foregoing the bonuses but strengthening your own. Some of these things are currently present in the invention (and future tech tree) and this would be a good time to get rid off that terrible tech tree as well, though of course a lot of it is just deterministic nonsense in the first place.

Greek culture could for example come with things such as bonuses to legitimacy, city building, tolerance of other religions (interpretario graeca), and a focus on accepting cultures within your group, not outside of it. Persian cultural influence could grant bonuses that instead focus on multicultural empires though assimilation of Noble pops to your own, dynstical governors, food bonuses in deserts, mountains, and arid climates. Etcetera, with some elements being shared between culture groups where appropriate. Some of these

In turn, having certain levels of cultural influence either in your state or abroad can give some diplomatic bonuses, and in general things like names of characters, dress, etc, adjust accordingly. I'm a bit thought out on the subject for now, and have to get back to work, but in essence I think such a system could lead to not just interesting gameplay, but also replayability, while still being rooted in history.
 
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Good point, in a marriage, I think people would retain their own culture, but could switch to the primary culture via events. The problem with children is again - static cultures.



Cultural change was generally very slow and took place over centuries, and often was a two way street. Hellenic cultural prestige had many states adopt elements of their culture, such as styles of coinage, dress, elements of their urban culture, deities (even if it was just putting a Hellenic name on a non-Hellenic deity), cultic practices, names, and language.

Its a difficult question to answer, so I will just give some examples of non-conquest cultural changes:

Pontic Cappadocia Hellenised to a large degree (but also Iranianised a bit further) by its own volition, emulating both Greek and Iranian culture under the Mithradatids. Coinage in the Greek style was adopted, however these were not without Iranian influences either (a common theme also in places conquered by Alexander). Similarly, while many women were given Greek names, the entire male line kept Iranian names, and the same goes for many male relatives. The religiously the kingdom was a mix of Anatolian, Iranian, and later some Greek elements adopted voluntarily because it was, in essence, hip. The Greek language also seems to have become dominant amongst the elites at some point, yet when Strabo (a native) gives us the lay of the land, is clear that the average person in Pontus is still very much Cappadocian, and that the Tauric Cappadocians and Pontic Cappadocians in his mind (and he's personally been to Tauric Cappadocia as well) are the same people.

So even as the Iranianized elites Hellenized to some degree as well, the Pops were still Cappadocian. And what culture does that make the elites? Persian? Greek (what kind?) But on other levels they were still Anatolian as well, Pontus did not develop Greek style cities, its military had strong local elements (and even picked up the good old Scythed Chariots at one point!). And the state itself seems to have been quite Anatolian in its structure too.

In Pisidia on the other hand, voluntary Hellenization went all-out, however here towns (developing into cities along a Greek model over time). And while our knowledge of rural Pisidian culture is non-existent, the cities by the end of the game have almost entirely Hellenized to the point where its hard to not classify them as Greek, including language, customs, social systems, forms of rule, you name it. The Pisidians seemed to have been a very decentralized group, encompassing many tribal- and later city-states with territories of varying sizes, and super fond of their autonomy. Yet unlike many other cultures of Anatolia that had been in direct contact with Greeks for centuries (Carians, Lydians, Lycians, etc), and who also Hellenized more quickly after Alexander's conquest, but for whom the process had already been ongoing for a while, there is little to no evidence of any Pisidian-Hellenic interactions and thus nothing to speed up. (Though, part of the earlier interactions between Anatolians and Greeks was both ways, with especially the Carians, Phrygians, and Lydians leaving their marks on Greek culture too)

In game terms, they Hellenized completely, and not to Macedonian Greek culture, or the nearer Doric or Ionian cultures, but Aeolian, since the archaeology shows many elements we also see in Pergamon. Yet much of this seems to have happened after the Attalid period, with only a few centres actively being Hellenized by the Pergamene kings. What seems to have happened is, due to the internal rivalry of the Pisidians, and the cultural prestige of Hellenism and in particular the Attalids (from the Pisidian p.o.v.) is that the other Pisidian cities were copying the original centres of Hellenic culture in an attempt to essentially out-Hellene one another.

And finally, the perhaps ultimate example of why culture needs work: the beloved Armenia. Which comes in 3 (or 4, but I'm not dealing with Commagene with its Anatolian-Armenian-Mesopotamian-Hellenic-Iranian culture) variations Lesser Armenia, Greater Armenia, and Sophene (still attached to Greater Armenia at the start, also sometimes called Lesser Armenia as well). Sophene seems to have Hellenised much faster then Greater Armenia (likely due to the closer contact with Hellenic cultures and the trade route flowing through it), even while it was part of it. With Greek culture in ascendance, to this part of Armenia it made sense to Hellenise to some degree because not just prestige, but also commerce (similarly, how many parts of Indonesia became Muslim, because it was convenient for trade, a new thing and became cool amongst the elites). Greater Armenia itself took much longer, and only really started to Hellenise when the Seleukids killed off its king, and even then it was still mixed with Iranian and Semitic elements and mostly second-hand. It was also very ineffective, and likely never left the elite sphere.

So within 1 state, amongst the same peoples (Iranianised Armenians), Hellenisation happens differently in different halves of the country. And other parts Iranianized further as well, because Iranian culture still held quite a lot of prestige in the region. And no Armenians, not even the elites, ever became something resembling Greek, during this time.

Yet in game, none of this nuance is present. Pops are either one culture, or another. Yet being part Hellenised seems to have had some extent of positive influence on Hellenic pops, as did being part Iranianised on Iranian pops. So what do I think could be done in game?


Without putting a lot of time in it, since it would require quite a bit of research to do well:

I've said this before, but I'd like to see a kind of cultural prestige/influence system. Build Judea into a mighty state, your culture (or culture group) starts to become more prestigious, which starts to keep the influence of other cultures in check. This starts to push your influence to nearby states as well, which eventually allows them to access bonuses related to your culture. On the other hand, their influence on you also gives you the option to select bonuses depending on the culture. You can do this actively, essetially embracing a foreign culture, which increases its influence, or keep it at bay, foregoing the bonuses but strengthening your own. Some of these things are currently present in the invention (and future tech tree) and this would be a good time to get rid off that terrible tech tree as well, though of course a lot of it is just deterministic nonsense in the first place.

Greek culture could for example come with things such as bonuses to legitimacy, city building, tolerance of other religions (interpretario graeca), and a focus on accepting cultures within your group, not outside of it. Persian cultural influence could grant bonuses that instead focus on multicultural empires though assimilation of Noble pops to your own, dynstical governors, food bonuses in deserts, mountains, and arid climates. Etcetera, with some elements being shared between culture groups where appropriate. Some of these

In turn, having certain levels of cultural influence either in your state or abroad can give some diplomatic bonuses, and in general things like names of characters, dress, etc, adjust accordingly. I'm a bit thought out on the subject for now, and have to get back to work, but in essence I think such a system could lead to not just interesting gameplay, but also replayability, while still being rooted in history.

We can use the assimilation mechanic to represent this influence.

POPs will assimilate to the most prestigious culture with presence in the region (defined as having at least one pop of that culture in that region)

The prestige is a ranking of cultures in the same region that decides which culture the POP in each territory of that region will assimilate, for example:

+5 if the culture has a great wonder ( in the whole world )
+5 if the culture has the most POPs in the region
+5 if the culture is noble civic right integrated culture in the nation owning the territory
+5 if the culture has more nobles & citizens proportionally to other classes (adding all POPs from all nations)
+5 if the culture is more happy (adding all POPs from all nations)

Like this, you can be culturally colonized because your POPs will assimilate to another culture. Also, when you conquer territory in a new region, assimilation to your culture will be more difficult, and the region culture will continue changing to the most prestigious culture in the region while your culture is not.

For small nations it could happen that all POPs are transformed to another culture. That will trigger an event to change your nation primary culture, introducing new families of that culture.

About the culture benefits in the inventions trees, I am absolutely in favor. The same as levies, your nation should be able to tap other cultures inventions if that culture is integrated.

You should submit your idea to the Senatus Populusque for devs to consider.
 
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@Samitte , I have used your post to elaborate an idea to the Senatus Populusque to have hybrid religions and cultures. I am afraid it is not how it was, but I think it introduces more realism while making it fun for the player. POP's will not start converting or assimilating right away, and there is a ranking for most prestigious religion and culture. The chances to convert are function of trade, relations and proximity of those cultures and religions. Thank you for sharing your insights.

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