Changing Bonuses for Sunni and other religions

[doktarr]

Well, we can postphone any changes to the FE, since it's not there yet as you say. I agree with doktarr, it's very important that we get that part playable ASAP. With temporary solutions if necessary.

I think the changes I suggest will make the Mongolia situation playable, if not realistic. We'll have to wait for someone else to push the PTI links and the China-Mongolia conflict events, as that stuff will need more careful balancing.

Doktarr, I think you still got Paganism wrong?

fixed.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

i think you also made a mistake with buddhism, which is supposed to be -10 tax income not -10 trade eff. other than that i m fine with the changes.

but i still like to mention a more realistic setup would be to modify your proposal with:

Confucianism
trade eff -10
tax income -15
morale -20
colonist -100
diplomats -300
missionary -70

Buddhism
colonist -50
diplomats -100
missionaries +50

in fact far east religion sliders were discussed in AGC: China a year ago from post #152. some considerations are different now but most are the same.

EDIT: edited confucian missionary

 

[unmerged(10128)]

with mongol links I dont know if we put them in some people would start complaining it's too easy to beat them as china, etc, then we have to put in more and more temporary change. but if nobody cares just do this:
expand mongol provinces to also cover
590
593
595
598
600
604
606
(as agreed in Mongolia v Russia). then add links for
645-607
648-606
603-1561
602-1561
601-1608
598-1511
i do not want to open too much since this not full implementation. there probably would be more after full implementation.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

i think you also made a mistake with buddhism, which is supposed to be -10 tax income not -10 trade eff. other than that i m fine with the changes.

but i still like to mention a more realistic setup would be to modify your proposal with:

Confucianism
trade eff -10
tax income -15
morale -20
colonist -100
diplomats -300
missionary -50

Buddhism
colonist -50
diplomats -100
missionaries +50

in fact far east religion sliders were discussed in AGC: China a year ago from post #152. some considerations are different now but most are the same.

Missionaries and colonist should be swapped. They were far less missonaric than any other "religion"

 

[almoravid]

Let's reduce muslim colonists from 0 to -100. This would allow to keep some colonies/tps in certain areas (i.e.Golden Horde) without changing their dp sliders too strong and thus allowing historical colonization by successor states (i.e. Russia), a while some naval muslim nations would still be able to colonize certain areas, perhaps getting them a little slower than christians, but they do not have much room for colonization anyway. This is also historically justifiable as muslim colonization was not at all as widespread as european.

EDIT after having read the thread :
Why do most people want to restrict orthodox diplomats, to be fewer than latin? I mean, of course, orthodox countries had less success in diplomacy because latins were uncooperative towards them, but isn't it well-represented by the lack of possible allies of their faith, as the relations get destroyed by themselves? Else, byzantines travelled europe a lot, seeking aid from everybody, while Russia, at times of it's strengh had frequent diplomatic intercourse with most of the even far away major powers, while when being weak went 'isolationist', as nobody was interested to speak to a weak Russia. From the gameplay aspect, I must agree with everything IB and Norrefeld said.

What concerns the Ottoman drop from latin to muslim, I'd say it's just quite enough sewere, as it would be hard to brake them else, and by 1800, they were not of any military strengh at all, and were way behind even Russia in military tech throughout the 18th century. And I don't think torthodox isn't used well enough, as Poland also uses it from mid 1500s on, while it certainly had a more modern army then the Ottomans in 1700. Also various balkan nations and Georgia use it, and I'd also want BOH and HUN get it from start on as well, to make them weaker then their enemies around 1500. There certainly is use of this 'slightly worse' techgroup, I think, to cap the development of certain latin nations that are ought to stagnate (Spain from a certain point on?).

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Missionaries and colonist should be swapped. They were far less missonaric than any other "religion"

i agree to reducing missionaries to -70 bcoz of what was said before (AGC:China post #164). for settlers i tend to think its not enough coz the max you can get from DP i think is 5 not counting shipyards and frontier bonus. in fact all non-european religions i think should get negative for colonists.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

for settlers i tend to think its not enough coz the max you can get from DP i think is 5 not counting shipyards and frontier bonus. in fact all non-european religions i think should get negative for colonists.

I agree about all non-european religions getting negative numbers to colonist with maybe the exception of Sunni getting no modifiers, but that is just for gamebalance more than historic, although it does have that too.

I think though that Confuscian and Budhism moreso have a tendancy to spread out, especially Budhism. Hinduism should get the worst, on par with paganism as it is a very ethnic and land connected religion. Here's my personal opition:

Sunni: -25
Shiite: -50
Budhism: -25
Confusicanism: -75
Hinduism: -200
Pagan: -250

 

[unmerged(6159)]

...(AGC:China post #164)...

If you're referencing things could you give us the link? Thanks.

 

[doktarr]

Confucianism
trade eff -10
tax income -15

Could you justify worse tax income than trade efficiency? Confucian distaste for merchants is well-established, but their taxation infrastructure was fairly elaborate.

morale -20

I suppose this is reasonable from a game balance perspective - is this intended to reflect the lack of a warrior ethos in Confucianism? This does present an issue with Japan, although I suppose DP sliders can be used to reflect this.

colonist -100
diplomats -300
missionary -70

The colonist penalty makes sense. The missionary penalty is pretty harsh, but probably reasonable as well. I disagree with -300 diplomats. This will essentially force Confucian nations to 1/year regardless of any other factors. -100 is probably reasonable, and gives us the flexibility to give China a better flow of diplomats during exceptional periods or ahisorical situations, like the continuation of the naval period.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

I agree about all non-european religions getting negative numbers to colonist with maybe the exception of Sunni getting no modifiers, but that is just for gamebalance more than historic, although it does have that too.

I think though that Confuscian and Budhism moreso have a tendancy to spread out, especially Budhism. Hinduism should get the worst, on par with paganism as it is a very ethnic and land connected religion. Here's my personal opition:

Sunni: -25
Shiite: -50
Budhism: -25
Confusicanism: -75
Hinduism: -200
Pagan: -250

i think tendency to spread is a bit different from the number of settlers. tendecy to spread is mostly covered by number of missionaries. there is a big difference between settling and converting. for Hindu, in fact, they did settle overseas areas. Champa is an example. i also dunno whether pagan should get too much penalty. afterall, greek, phoenicians, micronesians, melanesians, etc did colonise quite a lot. for the same reason being sunni doesnt necessarily mean more settlers. more missionaries definitely.

If you're referencing things could you give us the link? Thanks.

here you go. quite a few things said there doesnt apply here eg techspeed and stability bcoz those are more subject to future balancing.

Could you justify worse tax income than trade efficiency? Confucian distaste for merchants is well-established, but their taxation infrastructure was fairly elaborate.

i think taxation infrastructure is more related to infra tech. tax penalty is due to tendency of Confucian ideals putting particular pressure on rulers who are harsh on the people, eg imposing high taxes. on the other hand while confucianism disfavour merchants, they are not that particularly disfavourable when compared with other religions, eg catholicism used to disfavour commerce and islam forbid charging interest for lending money, etc. i think it is more relevant to compare vertically across different religions. saying the penalty for tax is higher than trade or missionaries is higher than colonists may have little or no meaning being each one has very different impact in the game.

I suppose this is reasonable from a game balance perspective - is this intended to reflect the lack of a warrior ethos in Confucianism? This does present an issue with Japan, although I suppose DP sliders can be used to reflect this. The colonist penalty makes sense.

yes that is supposed to reflect confucian bias towards the academic rather than martial.

The missionary penalty is pretty harsh, but probably reasonable as well. I disagree with -300 diplomats. This will essentially force Confucian nations to 1/year regardless of any other factors. -100 is probably reasonable, and gives us the flexibility to give China a better flow of diplomats during exceptional periods or ahisorical situations, like the continuation of the naval period.

at -70 it will start getting 0.1 missionary if innovativeness is at 3 (1 in 10 years is still not that bad), and 1.3 when innov at 0.

i'll change diplomats to -180. that way confucian countries will get 4.2 diplomats per year max in peace and 5.2 diplomats max at war. it will start getting more than 1 diplomat (1.2) in peace if its normal monarch rating its 5 with max aristocracy. in fact this is a good disincentive to choose the naval option.

so my new suggestions to modify doktarr's proposal would be:
trade eff
confucianism -10

tax income
confucianism -15
buddhism -10

morale
confucianism -20

colonist
Confucianism -100
Buddhism -100
Hinduism -50
Shiite -50
Sunni -30

diplomats
conficianism -180
buddhism -50

missionary
confucianism -70
buddhism 50
sunni 100

 

[doktarr]

i think tendency to spread is a bit different from the number of settlers. tendecy to spread is mostly covered by number of missionaries. there is a big difference between settling and converting. for Hindu, in fact, they did settle overseas areas. Champa is an example. i also dunno whether pagan should get too much penalty. afterall, greek, phoenicians, micronesians, melanesians, etc did colonise quite a lot. for the same reason being sunni doesnt necessarily mean more settlers. more missionaries definitely.

uh... the ahistorical results caused by Sunni missionaries is the whole reason that this thread got started. Giving Sunni bonus missionaries causes ahistorical conversions in northern India and in the Balkans. The Sunni conversions that happened in this era are adequately covered by events, both random and scripted.

i think taxation infrastructure is more related to infra tech. tax penalty is due to tendency of Confucian ideals putting particular pressure on rulers who are harsh on the people, eg imposing high taxes.

OK, perhaps a tax penalty is in order. But maybe a random event for Confucian nations should be scripted to address this situation? Give the ruler a choice between losing some taxvalue or losing stability/gaining revoltrisk?

on the other hand while confucianism disfavour merchants, they are not that particularly disfavourable when compared with other religions, eg catholicism used to disfavour commerce and islam forbid charging interest for lending money, etc.

I definitely disagree. In practice, neither of these religions prevented the flourishing of major merchant houses. Such a thing never happened in China. In fact, successful merchants in China often abandoned trade altogether and used their wealth to become landowners so that they could climb the social ladder. And of course both China and Japan actively supressed external trade at several points in this time period. These effects should be reflected in a large trade penalty.

i'll change diplomats to -180. that way confucian countries will get 4.2 diplomats per year max in peace and 5.2 diplomats max at war. it will start getting more than 1 diplomat (1.2) in peace if its normal monarch rating its 5 with max aristocracy. in fact this is a good disincentive to choose the naval option.

That's still too harsh in my opinion. For me, anyway, this would create the opposite incentive. "Jeez, even if I push my slider all the way right, I still only get a trickle of diplomats. I may as well go plutocratic for the other benefits, and take advantage of the hard minimum of one diplomat per year." I think -100 is the limit of reasonable effects.

so my new suggestions to modify doktarr's proposal would be:
trade eff
confucianism -10

I still say at least -15 here, maybe -20.

tax income
confucianism -15

maybe a bit less tax penalty, but a religion-specific random event?

buddhism -10

morale
confucianism -20

colonist
Confucianism -100
Buddhism -100
Hinduism -50
Shiite -50
Sunni -30

diplomats
conficianism -180

Again, I think -100 is the most isolationist you can go before you start to disincentiviize Aristocracy.

buddhism -50

missionary
confucianism -70
buddhism 50
sunni 100

Again, no missionaries for Sunni. If anything, give them slightly negative. They will have "heretics" and "Sufi mystic" events, in addition to all the nonrandom events in Turkey and Indonesia, which will allow for a historic rate of conversion.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

uh... the ahistorical results caused by Sunni missionaries is the whole reason that this thread got started. Giving Sunni bonus missionaries causes ahistorical conversions in northern India and in the Balkans. The Sunni conversions that happened in this era are adequately covered by events, both random and scripted.

sorry, didnt pay attention to that at all. my list is only for what is most realistic. so you could ignore that for other reasons.

OK, perhaps a tax penalty is in order. But maybe a random event for Confucian nations should be scripted to address this situation? Give the ruler a choice between losing some taxvalue or losing stability/gaining revoltrisk?

as i have already said, confucianism provides continuous pressure on rulers who are harsh on the people, eg imposing high taxes, definitely not one off events.

I definitely disagree. In practice, neither of these religions prevented the flourishing of major merchant houses. Such a thing never happened in China. In fact, successful merchants in China often abandoned trade altogether and used their wealth to become landowners so that they could climb the social ladder. And of course both China and Japan actively supressed external trade at several points in this time period. These effects should be reflected in a large trade penalty.

these on the other hand are more one off events, and are being handled by events. the other things you said is reflected in the -10%, plus taking into consideration the fact that Chinee merchants flourished and basically controlled trade in SE Asia.

That's still too harsh in my opinion. For me, anyway, this would create the opposite incentive. "Jeez, even if I push my slider all the way right, I still only get a trickle of diplomats. I may as well go plutocratic for the other benefits, and take advantage of the hard minimum of one diplomat per year." I think -100 is the limit of reasonable effects.

true. could change to -100 because of humans. my list is only for what is most realistic.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I don't know how well -20 to more penalty for confuscianism would work even with extreme dp modifiers for Japan. Essentially given those extreme circumstances Japan should still get an on-average fairly high morale. -5 or -10 seems okay. Essentally Japan shouldn't be forced to take extremes just to get out of the negative more penalty by a fair margin.

 

[doktarr]

Based on the recent discussion, here's a revised list. I pushed Confucian production efficiency up a little more, because honestly, we're slaughtering the Confucians here.

;Techspeed;Stab bonus;Prod. Eff.;Trade. Eff.;Tax Income;Morale;Ann.Col;Ann.Dip;Ann.Miss;x
Protestantism;1;-300;10;0;10;0;100;100;50;x
Reformed;2;-300;0;10;-10;0;200;100;50;x
Counterreformed;-3;600;0;-10;0;50;200;200;200;x
Catholicism;-1;600;0;0;0;0;200;200;100;x
Orthodox;-1;800;0;0;0;0;200;0;100;x
Sunni islam;-2;800;0;0;0;0;-30;0;0;x
Shiite islam;-5;300;-10;0;0;50;-50;0;100;x
Paganism;-25;-500;0;-10;0;0;0;0;0;x
Confucianism;-15;1000;20;-15;-15;-10;-100;-100;-70;x
Buddhism;-7;500;0;-10;0;0;-100;-50;100;x
Hinduism;-7;-300;0;0;5;0;-50;0;0;x
END;;;;;;;;;;

I think these changes will make elevated starting Chinese tech much more manageable.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

For right now it seems fine. I want to move Japan entirely outside of Confuscianism to start with and only after the civil war period would there be a chance to become confuscianism. Though the morale penalty shouldn't be made back to -20 just because that as that would still force extreme sliders to represent a more historical bonus for japan in such a manner if/when it does become confuscianism.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Based on the recent discussion, here's a revised list. I pushed Confucian production efficiency up a little more, because honestly, we're slaughtering the Confucians here.

;Techspeed;Stab bonus;Prod. Eff.;Trade. Eff.;Tax Income;Morale;Ann.Col;Ann.Dip;Ann.Miss;x
Protestantism;1;-300;10;0;10;0;100;100;50;x
Reformed;2;-300;0;10;-10;0;200;100;50;x
Counterreformed;-3;600;0;-10;0;50;200;200;200;x
Catholicism;-1;600;0;0;0;0;200;200;100;x
Orthodox;-1;800;0;0;0;0;200;0;100;x
Sunni islam;-2;800;0;0;0;0;-30;0;0;x
Shiite islam;-5;300;-10;0;0;50;-50;0;100;x
Paganism;-25;-500;0;-10;0;0;0;0;0;x
Confucianism;-15;1000;20;-15;-15;-10;-100;-100;-70;x
Buddhism;-7;500;0;-10;0;0;-100;-50;100;x
Hinduism;-7;-300;0;0;5;0;-50;0;0;x
END;;;;;;;;;;

I think these changes will make elevated starting Chinese tech much more manageable.

i agree with these changes and i will see the playtest results. i would push for high confucian morale penalty if results prove that it does not have significant effect on japan. and also see if trade efficiency should be -10 instead of -15, which is what i advocated (and i think thats more appropriate than increasing the prod efficiency btw). realistically confucian strength (compared to other far east religions) lies in the two elements that werent changed (techspeed and stability) but they should be changed later. actually because sunni missionary is scrapped i think buddhism missionary should be scrapped too because a different standard should apply to eastern religions as opposed to the west due to the number of provinces they have.

 

[tatertot18]

What was the eventual decision on Sunni bonuses? I remember reading earlier in this thread people were upset that alot of non-historical conversions were taking place in Ottoman territory. I disagree with this however. Alot of the areas they did not convert they only held for 100 years or so. They are also limited by the culture, its really hard to convert Venice to Islam, not to mention expensive. Islam was a religion that aggressively converted conquered people, and I feel this should be reflected in the game. If this was already decided on I apologize, but last I saw, lowering their bonuses was being discussed.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Confuscianism may not affect japan pre-civil war for much longer as i want to push them to Buddhism state religion as well, but if Tokugowa which should historically take over does, then it will still in the later part of Japan.

 

[Yakman]

What was the eventual decision on Sunni bonuses? I remember reading earlier in this thread people were upset that alot of non-historical conversions were taking place in Ottoman territory. I disagree with this however. Alot of the areas they did not convert they only held for 100 years or so. They are also limited by the culture, its really hard to convert Venice to Islam, not to mention expensive. Islam was a religion that aggressively converted conquered people, and I feel this should be reflected in the game. If this was already decided on I apologize, but last I saw, lowering their bonuses was being discussed.

But not in the period.

Islam expanded in to Bosnia, Albania, Bengal, and Indonesia in this period. However, the problem is that giving the Sunnis missionaries means that you wind up with an all Moslem India and Balkans. This is really ahistorical. I think it would be better to cover the limited number of conversions through events rather than by giving the Sunnis missionaries.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Yea, but i don't really like putting them in a straight jacket just because they didn't succeed very well. True the bonus as it stood before the mdifications listed was high, but giving them negative numbers isn't justified either.