Changing Bonuses for Sunni and other religions

[unmerged(17856)]

I'd prefer it if we would agree to give the 1.08 setup a chance, first.

 

[doktarr]

Giving anyone +20% in trade is senseless and will make the game unplayable in MP.
It don't support any changes to the Christians (and hardly any to the Muslims). Johan did five or six tweaks to get where the vanilla game is after massive feedback and actual playtesting. Thinking we can beat him with this discussion and a few hands-off is presumptuous to say the least IMO.

Perhaps, but all of that really only applies to the four convertable Christian religions, and to a somewhat lesser degree Sunni and Orthodox. Making changes to Orthodox is probably fine as long as we keep an eye to likely effects on MP Russia. Same with Sunni and the Ottomans. Since players can't easily convert out of these religions, they can be "tweaked" without their overall strength being an overriding concern.

In the case of Paganism and the eastern religions (and probably Shia as well), there's really no reason to expect the current setup is better at producing historical results. There's been much less effort put into balancing those religions, and we've changed the setups in those parts of the world so dramatically that any old balance has gone out the window anyway.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Perhaps, but all of that really only applies to the four convertable Christian religions, and to a somewhat lesser degree Sunni and Orthodox. Making changes to Orthodox is probably fine as long as we keep an eye to likely effects on MP Russia. Same with Sunni and the Ottomans. Since players can't easily convert out of these religions, they can be "tweaked" without their overall strength being an overriding concern.

In the case of Paganism and the eastern religions (and probably Shia as well), there's really no reason to expect the current setup is better at producing historical results. There's been much less effort put into balancing those religions, and we've changed the setups in those parts of the world so dramatically that any old balance has gone out the window anyway.

Changing Orthodox and Sunni (and to a lesser degree Shiite) should be done very carefully, with one or two changes at the time, not overhauling. They are part of the balancing in European MP. Ottomans can go Shiite in an event and Persia is played in MP now and then. The other religions can be changed more freely.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Giving anyone +20% in trade is senseless and will make the game unplayable in MP.
It don't support any changes to the Christians (and hardly any to the Muslims). Johan did five or six tweaks to get where the vanilla game is after massive feedback and actual playtesting. Thinking we can beat him with this discussion and a few hands-off is presumptuous to say the least IMO.

Changing Orthodox and Sunni (and to a lesser degree Shiite) should be done very carefully, with one or two changes at the time, not overhauling. They are part of the balancing in European MP. Ottomans can go Shiite in an event and Persia is played in MP now and then. The other religions can be changed more freely.

Well at the very least the christian nationsshould drop the 1 free diplomat they get in comparison to the other ones. There's no reason for this, unless pretty much every other religion is given an extra diplomat.

But again the religions were based on a vanilla GC.

 

[Norrefeldt]

I'd prefer it if we would agree to give the 1.08 setup a chance, first.

Good point. Absolutely. I haven't seen anyone objecting to it. I reported it as a bug since I think it's an oversight. At least in EEP it was.
I think Orthodox and Muslims should keep their diplomat penalty.

 

[doktarr]

Changing Orthodox and Sunni (and to a lesser degree Shiite) should be done very carefully, with one or two changes at the time, not overhauling. They are part of the balancing in European MP. Ottomans can go Shiite in an event and Persia is played in MP now and then. The other religions can be changed more freely.

In keeping with this thought process, I'm proposing the following revised set of religious settings:

;Techspeed;Stab bonus;Prod. Eff.;Trade. Eff.;Tax Income;Morale;Ann.Col;Ann.Dip;Ann.Miss;x
Protestantism;1;-300;10;0;10;0;100;100;50;x
Reformed;2;-300;0;10;-10;0;200;100;50;x
Counterreformed;-3;600;0;-10;0;50;200;200;200;x
Catholicism;-1;600;0;0;0;0;200;200;100;x
Orthodox;-1;800;0;0;-5;0;200;100;100;x
Sunni islam;-2;600;0;0;5;0;0;100;0;x
Shiite islam;-4;300;-10;0;0;50;0;100;100;x
Paganism;-25;-500;0;0;-20;0;0;0;0;x
Confucianism;-15;1300;5;-15;10;0;0;200;0;x
Buddhism;-5;500;0;0;0;70;0;100;100;x
Hinduism;-10;-300;0;0;0;50;0;100;0;x
END;;;;;;;;;;

No changes to the 1.08 settings of the four convertable religions. Orthodox gets an extra colonist (this was in AGC, yes?) and an extra diplomat (I'm giving everyone except Pagan at least one), but a small tax penalty. Sunni loses the missionary and a bit of tech speed, and gets a small tax bonus. Shia loses techspeed, stability, and production efficiency, but gains taxes and a diplomat. Paganism gets its taxes axed. The eastern religions are heavily modified along the lines of what MKJ suggested.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I still don't think budhism should get a tech penalty. As under no circumstance i know can any buddhist nation get above muslim this is unwarranted and unhistorical.

The techward stagnation for hinduism isn't as warrantened as much (though moreso than buddhism).

Anyway the stability value increase for confuscianism might be okay for now, but will likely haveto be increased later as the eastern religions become more varied and realistic (as much as can be done for EU2 engine).

 

[unmerged(10128)]

No changes to the 1.08 settings of the four convertable religions. Orthodox gets an extra colonist (this was in AGC, yes?) and an extra diplomat (I'm giving everyone except Pagan at least one), but a small tax penalty. Sunni loses the missionary and a bit of tech speed, and gets a small tax bonus. Shia loses techspeed, stability, and production efficiency, but gains taxes and a diplomat. Paganism gets its taxes axed. The eastern religions are heavily modified along the lines of what MKJ suggested.

i do not disagree with the non-eastern religion changes.

as for eastern religions, i dont think it is a good time to implement changes. in any case the changes would be too destablising, esp techspeed and morale bonus. I have no doubts that Dai Viet soldiers fights just as fiercely as Thai of Cham soldiers, and in that sense there should not be a substantial comparative bonus, and it may have some effects on european colonisation. I dunno why there is the original Hindu morale bonus anyway.

in fact i think muslims should have techspeed reduced similar to the eastern religions. the only concern is really the Ottoman Empire, which could be put into a different techgroup, perhaps orthodox tech group is warranted once it captures Constantinople. that way the rest of muslims would have similar levels as Hindu and Buddist as it should be.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I guess so, although the Mughuls would be my other concern (that and if stability is increased for sunni it should be increased for confuscianism). As i said 1000 will not be enough now that FE japan will have all buddhist provinces.

But some things should be done...while i agree though that morale bonuses are a bit harder to quantify, stuff like the ability to collect taxes and their ability to be competative at trading are more evident.

Even so, there is some precendent for giving confusican and buddhism morale bonuses. Hinduism is less obvious.

 

[chegitz guevara]

i do not disagree with the non-eastern religion changes.
the only concern is really the Ottoman Empire, which could be put into a different techgroup, perhaps orthodox tech group is warranted once it captures Constantinople. that way the rest of muslims would have similar levels as Hindu and Buddist as it should be.

The OE already starts in another tech group, either Latin or Orthodox, don't remember which.

 

[doktarr]

as for eastern religions, i dont think it is a good time to implement changes.

I guess I see it the other way around; since we're making so many other changes, we may as well put in this change too, and then tweak things for historicity from there.

in any case the changes would be too destablising, esp techspeed and morale bonus. I have no doubts that Dai Viet soldiers fights just as fiercely as Thai of Cham soldiers, and in that sense there should not be a substantial comparative bonus,

Wait, is Dai Viet going to be Confucian? Otherwise I don't understand your comments.

One of the reasons I like the Buddhist morale bonus idea is that it might help prevent China from running roughshod over SE Asia like they often do.

and it may have some effects on european colonisation. I dunno why there is the original Hindu morale bonus anyway.

I think European colonization in India and SE Asia will be mostly event-driven anyway. AI England isn't going to take over southern India without a lot of help no matter what we do to the religions. By the time they get there, the morale bonus should be buried by the European's technology-based morale bonus anyway.

But to answer the other point, I have no idea why the morale bonus is there, but both 1.08 and MKJ's proposal have it, so I didn't change it.

in fact i think muslims should have techspeed reduced similar to the eastern religions. the only concern is really the Ottoman Empire, which could be put into a different techgroup, perhaps orthodox tech group is warranted once it captures Constantinople. that way the rest of muslims would have similar levels as Hindu and Buddist as it should be.

I think I agree.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

I guess so, although the Mughuls would be my other concern (that and if stability is increased for sunni it should be increased for confuscianism). As i said 1000 will not be enough now that FE japan will have all buddhist provinces.

i dont think Mughuls would need to have same techspeed as OE. i think i'd be alright to have same techspeed as the rest of india.

But some things should be done...while i agree though that morale bonuses are a bit harder to quantify, stuff like the ability to collect taxes and their ability to be competative at trading are more evident.

Even so, there is some precendent for giving confusican and buddhism morale bonuses. Hinduism is less obvious.

i agree tax and trade bonuses generally should be less unbalancing because the changes seem to cancel out each other generally. however, for morale, i still dont see why there should be a bonus for buddhism and hinduism alone, and i dont think there should be bonuses for all eastern religions. in fact i think western religions are generally more zealous, especially CRC and shiite. so in terms of military morale i think western societies are generally better (speaking in very general terms, which this bonuses are for).

The OE already starts in another tech group, either Latin or Orthodox, don't remember which.

ah yes. just checked that they get switched back to muslim in 1615. maybe they shouldnt be switched back to muslim? or we can just put techspeed penalties for muslim and see how OE goes.

I guess I see it the other way around; since we're making so many other changes, we may as well put in this change too, and then tweak things for historicity from there.

unlike changing other things, the religious bonuses has much more general effect and i dont incline to start looking at the changes from there but rather prefer to look at it last after seeing all the effects of the other specific changes. that said i am now pretty convinced that i m not going to put any changes into the project until i finish the whole core set of changes that has major effect in the game, then the whole thing should be put it in at the same time. so changing now is not a good time in the sense that all changes should go in at the same time.

Wait, is Dai Viet going to be Confucian? Otherwise I don't understand your comments.

Bah! i m shocked that it's not already. i give up trying to manage partial changes. just checked and found that Vietnamese provices does not have confucian religion, which should've been in AGC if u look at my submission thread back then, but for some reason not in the merger.

One of the reasons I like the Buddhist morale bonus idea is that it might help prevent China from running roughshod over SE Asia like they often do.

3 things. 1, that is actually not too far away from the historical course. 2, realistic arguments about the bonuses which i've already said. 3, have to wait for the whole changes to go in together to see whether it is warranted for gameplay reasons.

with european colonisation, it still would be easier, whether for humans or AI with help of events, so it's better for both gameplay and realism.

so what would be a good tech penalty for muslims? i think -5 would be good.

 

[doktarr]

ah yes. just checked that they get switched back to muslim in 1615. maybe they shouldnt be switched back to muslim? or we can just put techspeed penalties for muslim and see how OE goes.

I think that would be fine, the whole point is that they're supposed to start losing the tech race to Europe at that point.

unlike changing other things, the religious bonuses has much more general effect and i dont incline to start looking at the changes from there but rather prefer to look at it last after seeing all the effects of the other specific changes. that said i am now pretty convinced that i m not going to put any changes into the project until i finish the whole core set of changes that has major effect in the game, then the whole thing should be put it in at the same time. so changing now is not a good time in the sense that all changes should go in at the same time.

Well, if you want to put in new religious effects at the same time as The new map of China and the new Dai Viet and Manchu events for China and the new monarchs and events for Japan and the newly broken up southern Indian states and the trans-PTI Mongol link and the Mongol events and the slightly expanded Indonesian states, et cetera et cetera... then that's fine by me.

Bah! i m shocked that it's not already. i give up trying to manage partial changes. just checked and found that Vietnamese provices does not have confucian religion, which should've been in AGC if u look at my submission thread back then, but for some reason not in the merger.

Fair enough. We should probably post this directly to the submission thread, as it should have been in the beta release.

3 things. 1, that is actually not too far away from the historical course. 2, realistic arguments about the bonuses which i've already said. 3, have to wait for the whole changes to go in together to see whether it is warranted for gameplay reasons.

All excellent points. For the time being, we should just make sure that the SE Asian nations aren't on China's hit list.

with european colonisation, it still would be easier, whether for humans or AI with help of events, so it's better for both gameplay and realism.

True, but I don't think it's a make-or-break issue from that perspective. I'm much more concerned with Hindu interaction with Delhi and the Mughals, then I am with Hindu interaction with Catholics and Protestants.

so what would be a good tech penalty for muslims? i think -5 would be good.

Seems fine on the face of it, but I really have no idea. It occurs to me that since the highest tech nations were the Confucian ones, we would probably do well to pair elevated starting techs with an even more brutal tech penalty for Confucianism.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

We should probably post this directly to the submission thread, as it should have been in the beta release.

That's more like a bug than a submission.

It occurs to me that there may be a way to really mess with Sunni to make things overall work out. With a big tech speed penalty it may be possible to kick the Ottomans up to Latin. Experience from EEP shows this has a huge effect on their performance. Coupled with Orthodox tech group for all of North Africa, much slower tech for all non-Ottoman/non-North African Sunnis might not be a huge problem.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Well, if you want to put in new religious effects at the same time as The new map of China and the new Dai Viet and Manchu events for China and the new monarchs and events for Japan and the newly broken up southern Indian states and the trans-PTI Mongol link and the Mongol events and the slightly expanded Indonesian states, et cetera et cetera... then that's fine by me.

probably for China: Zheng He/naval, Dai Viet, Mongol, Burmese, internal and Manchu events I will deal with once and for all as soon as i get the time. i do not wish to delay anymore and use up my time in talking.

All excellent points. For the time being, we should just make sure that the SE Asian nations aren't on China's hit list.

yea, i do not mind someone tweak the AI file for the time being.

Seems fine on the face of it, but I really have no idea. It occurs to me that since the highest tech nations were the Confucian ones, we would probably do well to pair elevated starting techs with an even more brutal tech penalty for Confucianism.

if they are going to go in together, i will need to see how the Zheng He/naval events work out to see how much tech penalty.

 

[Arilou]

I'd be very vary of bumping the Sunni tech penalty. Ottomans must not be disturbed IMHO.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

btw, why is Russia in its own tech group not same as Europe anyway? i think at least by 1600s Russia should be earning neighbour bonuses from Europe's technology. maybe increase orthodox tech penalty for re-balance.

and yes ottomans could be bumped to latin tech group for a while if islam tech penalty is increased.

 

[doktarr]

btw, why is Russia in its own tech group not same as Europe anyway? i think at least by 1600s Russia should be earning neighbour bonuses from Europe's technology. maybe increase orthodox tech penalty for re-balance.

Russia enters latin techgroup in 1700. You could certainly argue they should get it earlier in Peter's reign (1680s). Obviously, by the time the great Northern war is being fought, Russia is taking its cues from European tech.

and yes ottomans could be bumped to latin tech group for a while if islam tech penalty is increased.

They're already in latin tech until mid-game. But I think they should be made more innovative in their DP settings, which would counteract the loss of tech from making Sunni tech worse.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Russia enters latin techgroup in 1700. You could certainly argue they should get it earlier in Peter's reign (1680s). Obviously, by the time the great Northern war is being fought, Russia is taking its cues from European tech.

1700 is a bit too late IMO. i suppose other orthodox group countries logically switch away as well?

They're already in latin tech until mid-game. But I think they should be made more innovative in their DP settings, which would counteract the loss of tech from making Sunni tech worse.

ok, agree.

 

[chegitz guevara]

Making the Ottomans more innovative would mess with their ability to regain stability, which is already very difficult, as they usually have three or four different religions, and have six non-state cultures in their core provinces. Don't mess with their dip sliders.