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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

doktarr

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I was going to post this to the submission thread, when I realized that it's never really been a centerpiece of discussion, just something I've tossed out a few times and never had anyone disagree with.

In both India (Delhi/Mughals) and the Balkans (Ottomans), we often see provinces that were not historically converted, being converted to Sunni. One obvious solution to this issue is to eliminate the one bonus missionary that Sunni gets. This way, as long as the innovative slider is above five (as it should be for at least the first half of the Ottoman and Mughal empires) there will be no conversion attempts.

To counterbalance this penalty, I propose giving Sunni a small stability bonus - perhaps up the 600 to 1000. This will make it a little easier for the Sunni nations to govern all those wrong religion provinces. Alternatively, we could give Sunni a small tax income bonus.
 
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Sunni Islam should be, in the beginning, the best religion to have, but eventually become a liability.

How about +20% to tax income? To simulate the large numbers of heavily taxed religious minorities in Muslim countries by and large.

Speaking of this sort of thing, any thoughts towards actually having a -10% tax penalty to Catholic for all the lands belonging to the Church that could not be taxed?
 

Mad King James

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Let's look at all these critically shall we?

Protestantism:
Techspeed bonus of 1
Stability penalty of -300
+10% bonus to production efficiency
No effect on trade
+10% tax income
no effect on morale
1 extra colonist a year
1 extra diplomat a year
1 extra missionary every 2 years

Reformed:
Techspeed bonus of 2
Stability penalty of -300
No effect on production
+10% trade income
-10% tax income
no effect on morale
2 extra colonists a year
1 extra diplomat a year
1 extra missionary every 2 years

Counterreformed
Techspeed penalty of -3
Stability bonus of 600
No effect on production
-10% trade income
No effect on taxation
+50 morale
2 extra colonists a year
2 extra diplomats a year
2 extra missionaries a year

Catholicism
Techspeed penalty of -1
Stability bonus of 600
No effect on production
No effect on trade
No effect on taxation
No effect on morale
2 extra colonists a year
2 extra diplomats a year
1 extra missionary a year

Orthodox
Techspeed penalty of -1
Stability bonus of 800
No effect on production
No effect on trade
No effect on taxation
No effect on morale
1 extra colonist a year
no extra diplomats
1 extra missionary a year

Sunni islam
Techspeed penalty of -1
Stability bonus of 600
No effect on production
No effect on trade
No effect on taxation
No effect on morale
no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
1 extra missionary per year

Shiite islam
Techspeed penalty of -3
Stability bonus of 600
No effect on production
No effect on trade
-20% tax income
+50 morale
no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
1 extra missionary per year

Paganism
Techspeed penalty of -25
Stability penalty of -500
No effect on production
No effect on trade
No effect on taxation
No effect on morale
no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
no extra missionaries

Confucianism
Techspeed penalty of -10
Stability bonus of 1000
No effect on production
No effect on trade
-20% tax income
No effect on morale
no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
no extra missionaries

Buddhism
Techspeed penalty of -5
Stability bonus of 500
No effect on production
No effect on trade
-20% tax income
No effect on morale
no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
1 extra missionary per year

Hinduism
Techspeed penalty of -10
Stability penalty of -300
No effect on production
No effect on trade
+5% tax income
+50 morale
no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
no extra missionaries
 

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First off let's look at the protestant religions

Protestantism:

Techspeed bonus of 1
This is understandable I suppose,

Stability penalty of -300
Religious turmoil and all that

+10% bonus to production efficiency
Why is this here? How is being protestant lead to an increase in production efficiency? I suppose the increase in state centralization by the religion... In that case understandable.

No effect on trade
As it should be.

+10% tax income
Church lands being seized and religious orders facing taxation.

no effect on morale
Probably for the best

1 extra colonist a year
I think protestants should have 2 colonists a year really

1 extra diplomat a year
I suppose this is reasonable.

1 extra missionary every 2 years
Not sure about this, I mean protestants lacked the religious orders to do really killer inquisitions. no bonus missionaries IMHO

Reformed:

Techspeed bonus of 2
Why exactly does reformed have a higher techspeed than protestant anyways? Reformed is a more.. well... rigid and doctrine-laden faith than that of Anglicanism or Lutheran faith... If anything Reformed should have a techspeed penalty of -1 or -2

Stability penalty of -300
Again, religious turmoil

No effect on production
Reformed religion is an even more centralized version of protestantism, in my opinion there should be even more of a bonus, maybe 15% or 20%

+10% trade income
Why is this here? Other than the fact that the Dutch were skilled traders?

-10% tax income
Again, why is this here? The same seizure of church lands and centralized state, if not moreso. again +15% or even +20%.

no effect on morale
The Reformed Church is extremely radicalized, especially in the early years. I'd give them +20 morale actually.

2 extra colonists a year
Good

1 extra diplomat a year
Ok I guess

1 extra missionary every 2 years
Here I agree, as the Reformed Church was much more prostheletizing.
 

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Counterreformed

Techspeed penalty of -3
Seems reasonable

Stability bonus of 600
Could make it 1000 actually.

No effect on production
Ok

-10% trade income
Uh why? This should go..

No effect on taxation
Vast tracts of lands were owned by the church or religious orders and untaxable. -20% I say.

+50 morale
Sounds good.

2 extra colonists a year
Yep

2 extra diplomats a year
Good stuff

2 extra missionaries a year
alright.

Catholicism
Techspeed penalty of -1
Should be 0. Catholicism wasn't inherently uncreative.

Stability bonus of 600
good

No effect on production
ok

No effect on trade
ok

No effect on taxation
Should be -10%, for the tracts of land owned by the church and therefore untaxable.

No effect on morale
The Absolution should count for something IMHO. Perhaps +10?

2 extra colonists a year
ok

2 extra diplomats a year
ok

1 extra missionary a year
Ok

Orthodox

Techspeed penalty of -1
Ok

Stability bonus of 800
Good

No effect on production
Ok

No effect on trade
ok

No effect on taxation
Should actually be -10% as well, as with Catholicism the church owned much of the land.

No effect on morale
Orthodoxy should actually probably get a +20 bonus.

1 extra colonist a year
Seems reasonable.

no extra diplomats
Why not? I don't see why they shouldn't get 1 extra like the rest of Christianity.

1 extra missionary a year
Ok.
 

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Sunni islam:

Techspeed penalty of -1
Ok

Stability bonus of 600
Should be 1000

No effect on production
IMHO the decentralized nature of islam should be a problem for state production incomes. I'd say -20%

No effect on trade
The same problems were however a boon for trade, and throughout the period the most prolific traders were muslim. Here I'd say +20%

No effect on taxation
+20% for a variety of reasons. First of all is the Sunni custom of heavily taxing religious minorities as opposed to violence. Secondly is the large numbers of wealthy persecuted minorities because of this custom.

No effect on morale
Sunni Islam should have somewhat of a bonus, maybe +20

no extra colonists
ok

no extra diplomats
ok

1 extra missionary per year
Should be none. Most conversions to Islam were done by wandering Sufi mystics, not the state.

Shiite islam

Techspeed penalty of -3
ok

Stability bonus of 600
maybe lower this a bit, Shi'i was much more radical. 500?

No effect on production
like Sunni, this should be a problem. -20%

No effect on trade.
Again, like Sunni Islam, trade was often the lifeblood. +20

-20% tax income
Shiites should merely lack the benefits of the Sunni custom, not be penalized for it. I say no effect 0%.

+50 morale
Sounds good

no extra colonists
ok

no extra diplomats
ok

1 extra missionary per year
Here, for Shi'ites, I will agree, as Shi'i was far more prostheletizing. However they should have the same bonus as for Reformed, as it was more ad-hoc than official. 1 extra every 2 years.
 

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Paganism

Techspeed penalty of -25
I don't know about this... I mean paganism in and of itself isn't that uncondusive to enlightenment. How about -10 instead?

Stability penalty of -500
ok

No effect on production
should be -20, beyond taxation pagan governments had difficulty taxing trade or production.

No effect on trade
should be -20, beyond taxation pagan governments had difficulty taxing trade or production.

No effect on taxation
Pagans often had bigger problems with taxing the church than Catholics did, and even if no established church, paganism wasn't the most centralizing of faiths. There's a good reason many pagan kings converted to Christianity for the benefits to state powers. I say -20% or even -30%

No effect on morale
no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
no extra missionaries
all ok

Confucianism
Techspeed penalty of -10
Confucianism is quite rigid, I'll stick with it

Stability bonus of 1000
good stuff

No effect on production
The massive centralizing effects of a Confucian state should have a a small bonus, maybe +10%?

No effect on trade
Confucianism had incredible problems with trade actually, as tribute was the preferred means. I'd go so far as to give them -30 or -40

-20% tax income
Why? If anything, the central and supreme, and only, authority of the Confucian king is incredibly condusive to tax collection. I'd say +20.

No effect on morale
Should get a bit of a bonus really, as they are a Buddhist variant. +20?

no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
no extra missionaries
all ok

Buddhism
Techspeed penalty of -5
I suppose

Stability bonus of 500
ok

No effect on production
No effect on trade
both ok

-20% tax income
why? should be 0.

No effect on morale
Buddhists should have +70 morale actually. Buddhists were amongst the bravest warriors in the world.

no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
ok

1 extra missionary per year
should be one every 2 years, again because the conversions are more of an ad-hoc affair, as with reformed and shiite islam.

Hinduism

Techspeed penalty of -10
I guess

Stability penalty of -300
er why? This should be 1000. Not much more rigid and watertight than Hindu caste-bound conformity.

No effect on production
No effect on trade
ok

+5% tax income
why is this here?

+50 morale
ok

no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
no extra missionaries
all ok
 

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Mad King James said:
Protestantism:

Techspeed bonus of 1
This is understandable I suppose,

Stability penalty of -300
Religious turmoil and all that

+10% bonus to production efficiency
Why is this here? How is being protestant lead to an increase in production efficiency? I suppose the increase in state centralization by the religion... In that case understandable.

No effect on trade
As it should be.

+10% tax income
Church lands being seized and religious orders facing taxation.

no effect on morale
Probably for the best

1 extra colonist a year
I think protestants should have 2 colonists a year really

1 extra diplomat a year
I suppose this is reasonable.

1 extra missionary every 2 years
Not sure about this, I mean protestants lacked the religious orders to do really killer inquisitions. no bonus missionaries IMHO
Don't really see the reason for the extra diplomat though.
Mad King James said:
Reformed:

Techspeed bonus of 2
Why exactly does reformed have a higher techspeed than protestant anyways? Reformed is a more.. well... rigid and doctrine-laden faith than that of Anglicanism or Lutheran faith... If anything Reformed should have a techspeed penalty of -1 or -2

Stability penalty of -300
Again, religious turmoil

No effect on production
Reformed religion is an even more centralized version of protestantism, in my opinion there should be even more of a bonus, maybe 15% or 20%

+10% trade income
Why is this here? Other than the fact that the Dutch were skilled traders?

-10% tax income
Again, why is this here? The same seizure of church lands and centralized state, if not moreso. again +15% or even +20%.

no effect on morale
The Reformed Church is extremely radicalized, especially in the early years. I'd give them +20 morale actually.

2 extra colonists a year
Good

1 extra diplomat a year
Ok I guess

1 extra missionary every 2 years
Here I agree, as the Reformed Church was much more prostheletizing
-1 should be the most techpenalty...RC was also very doctrine and ritual based.

Also same thing with protistantism, why extra diplomat?
Mad King James said:
Counterreformed

Techspeed penalty of -3
Seems reasonable

Stability bonus of 600
Could make it 1000 actually.

No effect on production
Ok

-10% trade income
Uh why? This should go..

No effect on taxation
Vast tracts of lands were owned by the church or religious orders and untaxable. -20% I say.

+50 morale
Sounds good.

2 extra colonists a year
Yep

2 extra diplomats a year
Good stuff

2 extra missionaries a year
alright.[/quote[Tax penalty should be the same as catholosism...the counterreform zeal wouldn't affect the this.

They should get 1 extra diplomat a year because they were more zealous in getting other non-CRC/Catholic states to conform to catholism, but only 1 extra as none of the christian religions i can see otherwise having a reason for extra diplomats.
Mad King James said:
Catholicism
Techspeed penalty of -1
Should be 0. Catholicism wasn't inherently uncreative.

Stability bonus of 600
good

No effect on production
ok

No effect on trade
ok

No effect on taxation
Should be -10%, for the tracts of land owned by the church and therefore untaxable.

No effect on morale
The Absolution should count for something IMHO. Perhaps +10?

2 extra colonists a year
ok

2 extra diplomats a year
ok

1 extra missionary a year
Ok
2 extra diplomats as they werre more politically active than protistan and reformed, but not so much as CRC because their zeal wasn't as much.
Mad King James said:
Orthodox

Techspeed penalty of -1
Ok

Stability bonus of 800
Good

No effect on production
Ok

No effect on trade
ok

No effect on taxation
Should actually be -10% as well, as with Catholicism the church owned much of the land.

No effect on morale
Orthodoxy should actually probably get a +20 bonus.

1 extra colonist a year
Seems reasonable.

no extra diplomats
Why not? I don't see why they shouldn't get 1 extra like the rest of Christianity.

1 extra missionary a year
Ok
Orthodox was more confusive than cathoscism to technology and should get no penalty or even +1.

I can't see the reason for the morale increase, but there is none for a penality either.

Diplomats they shouldn't get the same reason rest of christianity doesn't...there is no real reason.
Mad King James said:
Sunni islam:

Techspeed penalty of -1
Ok

Stability bonus of 600
Should be 1000

No effect on production
IMHO the decentralized nature of islam should be a problem for state production incomes. I'd say -20%

No effect on trade
The same problems were however a boon for trade, and throughout the period the most prolific traders were muslim. Here I'd say +20%

No effect on taxation
+20% for a variety of reasons. First of all is the Sunni custom of heavily taxing religious minorities as opposed to violence. Secondly is the large numbers of wealthy persecuted minorities because of this custom.

No effect on morale
Sunni Islam should have somewhat of a bonus, maybe +20

no extra colonists
ok

no extra diplomats
ok

1 extra missionary per year
Should be none. Most conversions to Islam were done by wandering Sufi mystics, not the state.
why the extra stability?

Also they should probably get slightly higher trade bonus +25% or +30%.

They should get 1 extra diplomat. Almost every Islamic nation had constant political dealings with other nations. At th least 1 extra every 2 years.
Mad King James said:
Shiite islam

Techspeed penalty of -3
ok

Stability bonus of 600
maybe lower this a bit, Shi'i was much more radical. 500?

No effect on production
like Sunni, this should be a problem. -20%

No effect on trade.
Again, like Sunni Islam, trade was often the lifeblood. +20

-20% tax income
Shiites should merely lack the benefits of the Sunni custom, not be penalized for it. I say no effect 0%.

+50 morale
Sounds good

no extra colonists
ok

no extra diplomats
ok

1 extra missionary per year
Here, for Shi'ites, I will agree, as Shi'i was far more prostheletizing. However they should have the same bonus as for Reformed, as it was more ad-hoc than official. 1 extra every 2 years.
Extra diplomat for the same reason as the Sunni.

Athough iif they were that much prosthetizing, they should get more missionaries than sunni so giving the sunni 1 every 2 years then should be done instead.
Mad King James said:
Paganism

Techspeed penalty of -25
I don't know about this... I mean paganism in and of itself isn't that uncondusive to enlightenment. How about -10 instead?

Stability penalty of -500
ok

No effect on production
should be -20, beyond taxation pagan governments had difficulty taxing trade or production.

No effect on trade
should be -20, beyond taxation pagan governments had difficulty taxing trade or production.

No effect on taxation
Pagans often had bigger problems with taxing the church than Catholics did, and even if no established church, paganism wasn't the most centralizing of faiths. There's a good reason many pagan kings converted to Christianity for the benefits to state powers. I say -20% or even -30%

No effect on morale
no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
no extra missionaries
all ok
Well -10 is a bit too little. it should be more of a penalty than confuscianism as confuscian countries, while rigid, did make some progress and changes and their more centralized nature would lead to them being able to impliment whatever they did easier.
Mad King James said:
Confucianism
Techspeed penalty of -10
Confucianism is quite rigid, I'll stick with it

Stability bonus of 1000
good stuff

No effect on production
The massive centralizing effects of a Confucian state should have a a small bonus, maybe +10%?

No effect on trade
Confucianism had incredible problems with trade actually, as tribute was the preferred means. I'd go so far as to give them -30 or -40

-20% tax income
Why? If anything, the central and supreme, and only, authority of the Confucian king is incredibly condusive to tax collection. I'd say +20.

No effect on morale
Should get a bit of a bonus really, as they are a Buddhist variant. +20?

no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
no extra missionaries
all ok
stability if we raise others to 1000 should be higher. Confuscianism is, if nothing else, known for stabuluty and order abover most everything else. So 1500 would be a good number.

For trade, while it is true, -30 is a bit much...-15 would be better imo, though -25 if you really think they were worse than pagans, which i don't believe so i'm sticking with -15. They did set up trade deals and whatnot and were atleast good at enforcing them for a while.

For taxing, you're right, but the confuscians, especially china were very beurocratic, but whatever, it could be argued either way.

Moral isn't right though as confuscianism isn't a budhism variant...it was devised as a philosophy long before budhism began. Neo-Confuscianism (which we have decided not to use it) is budhist influenced, but if we are going to base it off of neo-confuscianism, then beuond a name change will be a total revamp in the way of looking at confuscianism.

Also they should get extra diplomats, atleast 2. In state-to-state politics they were very active.
Mad King James said:
Buddhism
Techspeed penalty of -5
I suppose

Stability bonus of 500
ok

No effect on production
No effect on trade
both ok

-20% tax income
why? should be 0.

No effect on morale
Buddhists should have +70 morale actually. Buddhists were amongst the bravest warriors in the world.

no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
ok

1 extra missionary per year
should be one every 2 years, again because the conversions are more of an ad-hoc affair, as with reformed and shiite islam.
I don't know if they really should get a tech penalty, but not a bonus, just netural. While they didn't hearitly embrace technology, they didn't believe in supressing it.
Mad King James said:
Hinduism

Techspeed penalty of -10
I guess

Stability penalty of -300
er why? This should be 1000. Not much more rigid and watertight than Hindu caste-bound conformity.

No effect on production
No effect on trade
ok

+5% tax income
why is this here?

+50 morale
ok

no extra colonists
no extra diplomats
no extra missionaries
all ok
Techspeed porlly should be -5 as buddhism should be no techspeed modifier and hinduism isn't as opposed to technoliogy as hinduism, but its not really in favor of it either. As to the stability, whille what you say is true, caste conflicts were quite common.
 

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The religious bonuses have been tweaked a lot in official releases after massive input from both SP and MP players. Sometimes it has to do with making a group of states perform historically, sometimes you can find a real historical reason for it. A lot, at lest in MP, have been about to balance them. First it was too favorable to go reformed, even with France or Poland! Then nobody went counterreformed, then everybody did etc. I don't support a overhaul of that system, IMHO we shouldn't try to turn all those screws at the same time, the chances we would beat the performance of the vanilla game that way are slim.

I'd be prepared to test one or perhaps two changes after some testing, and then see how AGCEEP performs after that. I support the change doktarr proposed in the first post, we are trying to fix something that is not working with that one. My only concern is that the sunni stability bonus is very small for large sunni states, but substantial for smaller ones. So the lack of missionaries will hurt a big OE a lot. What will the innovativeness be for an avarage performing OE (I'll look up chegitz guevara's AAR) and what are the increments for missionaries from innovativeness? Ideally I'd like the OE to give *some* missionaries, like 0.1 or 0.2 every year.
If anything else, reform,ed is still a tad to good. In MP they are feared traders!
 

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I agree with this. I don't see what problem with the game evolution is being addressed by overhauling the entire religious system. Tweaking Sunni looks like it addresses a real issue that needs to be dealt with.
 

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Still if sunni gets stability bonus to 1000 confusciansim needs to be increased to atleast 1400. The fact they have the best stability bonus is about its only real saving grace. This will become more important anr the religious overhall of China is done and now that japanese provinces will be buddhism from the next version (these have been talked about for a long time, since before even the merger began).
 

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Actually the numbers MKJ quotes are from 1.08. Has anyone taken a glance at our religion.csv? It looks like 1.05, it's horribly off from the Paradox version, just wondering if I missed an initial discussion on this.
 

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Updating to 1.08 makes perfect sense!
 

Norrefeldt

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OMG! :eek:o Needs immidiate correction! I'll bug report it.
Tweaking the Far Eastern religious modifiers isn't that bad since you cannot convert your state between them. Confusianism ought perhaps to have the highest stab bonus, I won't argue against that.
 

Mad King James

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Ok from comments above here's something I'm going to test out in AGCEEP in a hands-off.

;Techspeed;Stab bonus;Prod. Eff.;Trade. Eff.;Tax Income;Morale;Ann.Col;Ann.Dip;Ann.Miss;x
Protestantism;1;-300;10;0;10;0;200;0;0;x
Reformed;-1;-300;15;0;15;20;200;0;50;x
Counterreformed;-3;1000;0;0;-10;50;200;100;200;x
Catholicism;0;600;0;0;-10;10;200;200;100;x
Orthodox;1;800;0;0;-10;0;200;0;100;x
Sunni islam;-1;1000;-20;25;20;10;0;100;0;x
Shiite islam;-3;500;-20;20;0;50;0;100;50;x
Paganism;-25;-500;-20;-20;-20;0;0;0;0;x
Confucianism;-10;1500;10;-20;20;0;0;100;0;x
Buddhism;0;500;0;0;0;70;0;0;50;x
Hinduism;-5;400;-10;10;0;50;0;0;0;x
END;;;;;;;;;;
 

Norrefeldt

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Good. For quick reference, this is 1.08:

;Techspeed;Stab bonus;Prod. Eff.;Trade. Eff.;Tax Income;Morale;Ann.Col;Ann.Dip;Ann.Miss;x
Protestantism;1;-300;10;0;10;0;100;100;50;x
Reformed;2;-300;0;10;-10;0;200;100;50;x
Counterreformed;-3;600;0;-10;0;50;200;200;200;x
Catholicism;-1;600;0;0;0;0;200;200;100;x
Orthodox;-1;800;0;0;0;0;100;0;100;x
Sunni islam;-1;600;0;0;0;0;0;0;100;x
Shiite islam;-3;600;0;0;-20;50;0;0;100;x
Paganism;-25;-500;0;0;0;0;0;0;0;x
Confucianism;-10;1000;0;0;-20;0;0;0;0;x
Buddhism;-5;500;0;0;-20;0;0;0;100;x
Hinduism;-10;-300;0;0;5;50;0;0;0;x
END;;;;;;;;;;
 

Mad King James

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chegitz guevara said:
If Confusionism has such a high stab bonus, won't it hurt the Manchu takeover?

The Manchus should be stronger than China, we shouldn't be cheating their way into victory...
 

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Good to see things moving on this one. I'd like to second adjusting the Sunni religion before getting ambitious with the others (although that could be useful as well).
 

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Norrefeldt said:
The religious bonuses have been tweaked a lot in official releases after massive input from both SP and MP players. Sometimes it has to do with making a group of states perform historically, sometimes you can find a real historical reason for it. A lot, at lest in MP, have been about to balance them. First it was too favorable to go reformed, even with France or Poland! Then nobody went counterreformed, then everybody did etc.
It sounds to me like this was mostly a question of which of the four convertable Christian religions is best for MP play. Now, don't get me wrong - that's an extremely important question, and we should make sure that if we change the settings of those four religions, they all stay fairly even in MP. This does not PRECLUDE doing an overhaul if we think it will make the game more realistic or improve overall simulation quality, but it does mean that such a job is a lot harder.

The question is a little simpler for the other seven religions, since (a couple stray events excepted) players can't voluntarily jump from one to another. In those cases we can change the religions in ways that may make them stronger or weaker if we think this will improve historicity.
Norrefeldt said:
I don't support a overhaul of that system, IMHO we shouldn't try to turn all those screws at the same time, the chances we would beat the performance of the vanilla game that way are slim.
Well, see my comments above. Broadly speaking, if the four convertable religions are comparable in multiplayer, then they will probably be fairly even in single player too, so the overall simulation level will stay fairly good (or at least not get worse).
Norrefeldt said:
I'd be prepared to test one or perhaps two changes after some testing, and then see how AGCEEP performs after that.
Well honestly, we're making so many changes at this point that the best approach may be to throw in everything we think is a good change that MIGHT be playable, and then balance things from there.

This is especially true in the far east. Consider how completely things are being changed there, from the new states in formerly uncolonized India and Indonesia, to the new larger China incorporating the Manchu and Dai Viet, to the introduction of the Mongols, to the re-worked Chinese revolts and Japanese warring states period, to the event-based European intrusions in India and southeast Asia, to the re-worked strategic decision sequence for China, to the increased manpower, and so on. Whatever balance the vanilla GC has in that area is totally fried by the changes we're already implementing. We may as well re-work the eastern religions while we're at it, if we think that's a realistic thing to do.
Norrefeldt said:
I support the change doktarr proposed in the first post, we are trying to fix something that is not working with that one. My only concern is that the sunni stability bonus is very small for large sunni states, but substantial for smaller ones.
Isn't the stability bonus on a per-province basis? So large sunni empires will get a big boost from this.
Norrefeldt said:
So the lack of missionaries will hurt a big OE a lot. What will the innovativeness be for an avarage performing OE (I'll look up chegitz guevara's AAR) and what are the increments for missionaries from innovativeness? Ideally I'd like the OE to give *some* missionaries, like 0.1 or 0.2 every year.
Well, if they were innovative 4 with no bonus missionaries from religion, they'd get some missionaries. But if you think about it, .1 missionaries a year is still a lot of conversion attempts over the course of 400 years. For the AI, the missionary situation is almost a binary one: either they have a positive flow of missionaries and they will attempt conversions, or they don't have a positive flow and they won't. For at least the first half of the game, its probably better for historicity if the Ottomans don't have a positive flow. A human player can push down innovativeness if they want to do conversions.