Changes to the Defender of Faith mechanic

[alozz]

I think I am a pretty good player (at least decent, hey i got three mountains ) and know a lot of the tricks people might suggest to circumvent the DotF.

I think, as it stands, Defender of the Faith is an absolutely abysmal mechanic. Strange alliances and guarantees already limit the player as he-she tries to expand, which I understand for game balancing.

But DotF currently is broken. I am playing as Byzantium right now. After ruining the Otto's in a couple very difficult wars, I am a world power but not invincible yet. To the West, I have Austria-Hungary with a billion allies which is normal, but they will literally always have a world power DotF helping them in the war because I am Orthodox. To the north I have a separate Poland - Lithuania, which would be an easy(ish) war without DotF but with it, the land I would take would not even worth the resources i would have to use. To the south I have Mamluks and to the east a pretty buff Ajam. I fought Mamluks in pretty slugfest wars which I beat them taking a good amount of land. Now if I try to attack Ajam, DotF Mamluks would still join the war making it really difficult to expand again. Venice also has couple anatolian provinces because of ruined Ottomans, allied to the moon.

Last game I had Jaunpur defending an African nation which it had no relations before just because DotF. I fought them in like 5 consecutive wars, they would just take it right back.

It definitely needs a huge change. I would even prefer it to be removed because it is not very realistic anyways. But, maybe instead of DotF acting like a regular ally, it would be better to have it like an "enforce peace" or a "warning" mechanic. For example, if the Catholic nation has good relations with the Catholic DotF (lets say +75 for war against heretics, +50 for heathens), then they can choose to enforce peace. And of course distance should be really important factor which (for the ai) can be within provinces of interest or depending on trade power or something.

The truce timers should affect it as well.

 

[PtY]

Since most of the complaints about Defender of the Faith mechanics seem to center on the absurdity of small or distant countries intervening in foreign wars, I'd suggest limiting the range at which the DotF is called by using the distance between borders function. This would likely solve the worst of the problem: Jaunpur (presumably a regional power) wouldn't intervene in African wars, but a world-spanning Spanish empire might act as a guarantor of Catholic colonizers across Asia.

 

[alozz]

Since most of the complaints about Defender of the Faith mechanics seem to center on the absurdity of small or distant countries intervening in foreign wars, I'd suggest limiting the range at which the DotF is called by using the distance between borders function. This would likely solve the worst of the problem: Jaunpur (presumably a regional power) wouldn't intervene in African wars, but a world-spanning Spanish empire might act as a guarantor of Catholic colonizers across Asia.

I mean that is one really silly part. But the whole concept is pretty over-valued in EU4 compared to the real world. DotF in history was basically just a political title and I don't think it ever led directly to a full-on war. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

I just don't like the mechanic as it is, especially how dominant it is in the current patch.

 

[sjobenrit]

really I think that if you would want to change DoF you need to change the diplomatic system aswell as it such a mess rn. Why should I fight Portugal, who is allied with spain, guaranteed by france, and guaranteed through DoF by england to take bake Goa as jaunpour?

 

[Styria]

Is this really a historical mechanic anyway? I get this is a game and all, but what part of history does this really simulate?

The title, as listed on Wikipedia, was conferred to James IV of Scotland by Pope Julius II in 1507, but doesn't really say why.

It was also conferred to Henry VIII of England by Pope Leo X in 1521, because Henry wrote a book about the sanctity of marriage and how cool the Pope was, which was one of the early counter-protestant writings. Then in 1530 it was revoked because Henry made the Church of England because the Pope wouldn't give him another divorce. And in 1544 Henry VIII was granted the Defender of the Faith title by Parliament for the Church of England.

The title was granted to James V of Scotland by Pope Paul III in 1537 to spite his uncle Henry, I guess.

John III Sobieski of Poland got it in 1684 for commanding the coalition against the Ottomans.

Other countries have variations of the title as well. But overall, it seems to come in two flavors; declaring that the monarch is the supreme head of the state church, or as an award from the Pope because you did something (e.g. Conquering Granada, writing an essay, commanding a Catholic defensive coalition, not being Henry VIII).

I mean, I could be wrong about this, but it does seem like the function of this mechanic is to foster a sort of crusade or jihad-esque scenario. But it doesn't really seem that historical a mechanic, especially when applied to other religious groups.

Maybe this mechanic should be repurposed into a regional-power thing, rather than a religious thing. Like, if I am Spain, and I control a majority of Italy, then I can claim a "Defender of Italy" title, allowing me to join in defensive wars against other countries attacking states with capitals in the region. If someone else manages to get as much or more territory, maybe they could claim the title, and have it grant a CB against me to establish themselves as "Defender of Italy".

 

[alozz]

Is this really a historical mechanic anyway? I get this is a game and all, but what part of history does this really simulate?

The title, as listed on Wikipedia, was conferred to James IV of Scotland by Pope Julius II in 1507, but doesn't really say why.

It was also conferred to Henry VIII of England by Pope Leo X in 1521, because Henry wrote a book about the sanctity of marriage and how cool the Pope was, which was one of the early counter-protestant writings. Then in 1530 it was revoked because Henry made the Church of England because the Pope wouldn't give him another divorce. And in 1544 Henry VIII was granted the Defender of the Faith title by Parliament for the Church of England.

The title was granted to James V of Scotland by Pope Paul III in 1537 to spite his uncle Henry, I guess.

John III Sobieski of Poland got it in 1684 for commanding the coalition against the Ottomans.

Other countries have variations of the title as well. But overall, it seems to come in two flavors; declaring that the monarch is the supreme head of the state church, or as an award from the Pope because you did something (e.g. Conquering Granada, writing an essay, commanding a Catholic defensive coalition, not being Henry VIII).

I mean, I could be wrong about this, but it does seem like the function of this mechanic is to foster a sort of crusade or jihad-esque scenario. But it doesn't really seem that historical a mechanic, especially when applied to other religious groups.

Maybe this mechanic should be repurposed into a regional-power thing, rather than a religious thing. Like, if I am Spain, and I control a majority of Italy, then I can claim a "Defender of Italy" title, allowing me to join in defensive wars against other countries attacking states with capitals in the region. If someone else manages to get as much or more territory, maybe they could claim the title, and have it grant a CB against me to establish themselves as "Defender of Italy".

I mean this kinda is sending a warning.

Paradox probably will keep the mechanic itself but I just don't like it and it does not make game sense to me either. AE mechanics already cover religious factors by giving other religions extra AE. Maybe defender of faith can give the nation holding it military bonuses against heretics and heathens, missionary and prestige.

Definitely hate the way it is right now, like why would the DotF would be counted the same as an ally? AI takes it when they are in thousands of ducats in debt as well, like my ally France literally won't join an offensive war of mine because of debt but will call me in for their wars and will defend a catholic opm against me because they get +30 for defensive war? Happened constantly in my Serbia campaign.