Changes to ideology system

[Cloudyvortex]

I've always disagreed with the left-to-right Communism-Liberalism-Fascism dynamic and how that straitjacketed countries into blocs as a result, especially since I see WWII (and the Cold War for that matter) be a matter of perceived national interest similar to WWI. Ideology was definitely a major factor in decision making, but mostly as a matter of trustworthiness and prejudice. But aggression and fear of aggression came first. The Nazi decision to invade the Soviet Union was ideological, but it was their ideological desire for autarky, economic self-sufficiency, and the fact that most of the Reich's food and fuel came from Ukraine and Azerbaijan respectively rather than a desire to stamp out Communism anywhere and everywhere in the world that provoked Barbarossa. I think Communism came into play much more as a propaganda tool and a conceit that it weakened the Soviets, leaving them vulnerable. This example is extremely disputable as is the idea. But I maintain that realpolitik did guide even the deranged, though obviously not alone. A rebalance between perceived interests and a more flexible bloc system that isn't necessarily tied to (though by no means divorced from) ideology would be nice.

I'd also like, in addition to this, the triangular system replaced with a quadrilateral one; that is, based around 4 general ideologies subdivided into specific ideologies, many of which connect with other species and other genera. The major genera would be Liberalism, Conservatism, Nationalism, and Socialism. All would have democratic and antidemocratic species (yes, even Liberalism, in theory at any rate), and each species would have effects. (They needn't be balanced, hell, they won't be, but that's another argument.) Also, I would prefer something somewhat more comprehensive than in previous games and have an option (heck, more often than not) of mixed governments, with multiple ideological factions, that is species, guiding the state. Italy would count since had a mix of Fascisti and non-Fascisti in government, giving the Italian player more options in social policy than the more monopolistic Nazis in Germany would have had (I also think that Italy was slightly less oppressive due to this, rather than any relative goodness of Mussolini's black heart; Italian Fascism wasn't Naziism Lite). Also, it would better simulate the vagarities in US politics. Although the Democrats were becoming the party of American Liberalism and the Republicans that of American Conservatism, the words "Liberalism" and "Conservatism" don't mean ideology per se, but electoral coalitions. That is, major US parties are what in Europe would be permanent blocs.

I've composed a basic list of potential specific ideologies available at or near the time, arranged in their genera and given a description or list of examples.

- Liberalism (dislikes Nationalism more than Conservatism or Socialism)
Propertarianism (Right-wing Libertarians or Anarcho-Capitalists, more extreme than below, not really relevant at the time)
Market Liberalism (Classical Liberalism, pretty much the same as always)
Social Liberalism (FDR- and LBJ-types, most European centrists, form the Third Way with Social Democrats)
National Liberalism (Paleoliberals before 1960s, Neoconservatives after, Truman- or JFK-types, most American centrists, may be merged with above since the division only become pronounced during the Cold War, never liked Social Democrats, though)
Liberal Autocracy (Enlightened Despotism, free society, unfree politics, more useful with a WWI scenario and Austria-Hungary)
- Conservatism (dislikes Socialism more than Liberalism or Nationalism)
Social Conservatism (Tories and Christian Democrats by this point)
National Conservatism (de Gaulle, Most European Monarchs, US Paleoconservatives like Robert Taft, or Lindbergh if you feel generous)
Religious Democracy (Old School Christian Democracy, US Religious Right, Muslim Brotherhood, any theocrat who supports a democratic structure and is willing to exploit and maintain it in their quest to impose their values on the faithless)
Paternal Autocracy (Typical Right-wing Military Dictators (TRMDs), Carlists, most Absolute Monarchs, Right-wing Guomindang (Jiang, Ma))
Fundamentalism (Despotic Theocracy, House of Saud, be holy or be dead)
- Nationalism (dislikes Liberalism more than Conservatism or Socialism)
Civic Nationalism (Liberal version of Nationalism, don't really see a difference between this and National Liberals, maybe candidates for a merge, but where)
National Democracy (Kemal, Guomindang under Sun, supports democracy for only nationalist reasons)
Socialist Nationalism (Vargas, Nasser, Peron, Left-wing Guomindang (Guangxi, Yunnan), most non-Communist left-wing dictators)
Clerical Fascism (Parafascism, Franco, Salazar, Schuschnigg, Iron Guard, Rexists, Integralists, Silver Legion, Japanese Stratocrats)
Secular Fascism (True Fascism, Mussolini, NSDAP, Falangists, Kuhn's idiots)
- Socialism (dislikes Conservatism more than Liberalism or Nationalism)
Libertarian Socialism (Left-Libertarians, (Anarcho-)Syndicalists, Zapatists)
Social Democracy (Labour, SDP, SAP, US Progressives, INC, Kerensky, you know them, you hate them, you probably vote for them anyway)
Democratic Socialism (non-Social Democracy democratic socialist parties, US Socialists, tend to struggle together)
Reform Communism (Lenin, Tito, Khrushchev, Deng, and any other Communist who finds thinking better than blind orthodoxy)
Anti-Revisionism (Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, any other Communist who deems reason and recognition of failure to be decadent)

This all needs some work (and possibly some simplification). I don't doubt PDS has already planned the political system and is satisfied with it, so I now this is all moot. I was kinda disappointed that the ideology scale hadn't been improved/expanded in HoI3, and 2d left-v-right isn't as helpful a comparison in global politics, so hopefully there are more changes coming.

Thoughts?

 

[BBBD316]

That sounds very hard to put through, having to change the huge amount of ministers to those seems like a lot of work for what benefit?

 

[von Rosen]

Are you American? Liberalism and conservatism hardly make opposing ideologies, though they are tribal markers in American political partisanship. Look at the history of Winston Churchill's political career as a good example of the fuzzy border between liberals and conservatives during most of the 20th century. In almost all instances the two were close allies, except when they were fully united. Conservatives as an anti-democratic force are actually well modeled as they are, slightly more sympathetic to fascism than to democracy.

 

[The Andy-Man]

I like the quadrille idea, though the version proposed is overly complicated and doesn't really make sense. The better one to use would be the actual political compass which is 2 lines, one on economics, the other of society.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass)

 

[Calders]

The trouble with the political compass is it doesn't really deal with Nationalism. Although this is referred to as the far right it isn't necessarily economically right wing, in fact it often left wing from an economic perspective (i.e. state owned industry rather than privately owned). You could argue that Nationalism is primarily a propaganda tool rather than anything else but it has to be represented somehow in a WW2 scenario or you end up with hardly any difference between communists and fascists (which is actually true and why they hated each other so much).

 

[EmperorTojo]

Reform Communism (Lenin, Tito, Khrushchev, Deng, and any other Communist who finds thinking better than blind orthodoxy)
Anti-Revisionism (Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, any other Communist who deems reason and recognition of failure to be decadent)
Thoughts?

:huh:


Anyway, I think the ideologies for HOI3 were.. Good enough, really. They should encompass "vague" ideologies to allow a broad groups of different ideologies to be merged with them, makes things easier. Too many ideologies just make it complicated for no particular reason. You'd also have to realize that now you need party members for every ideology for every country. Not possible. But national socialism and fascism could be one ideology, as you point out. It doesn't really make sense that they are seperated, unless there is some game mechanic I am not aware of.


ALTHOUGH!

I realize I do want more parties though... Several parties of the same ideology, but different time periods. (I.e. Fascist party X 1936-1939, party historically dissolves/merges/something/whatever and becomes Fascist party Y 1939-1945.) This is just bit for immersion, and the ideology groups would just need some name changing feature. Then again, flag changing feature in HOI4 apparently won't be in the game so kind of dubious. This seems like a simple request though.

 

[Contravarius]

This reminds me of a certain Victoria 2 mod I saw a while back. Maybe this is really what it really should be - a mod for people who really enjoy this kind of detail in this particular part of the game?
I would personally change a few things here and there, but an interesting thought nevertheless.

But national socialism and fascism could be one ideology, as you point out. It doesn't really make sense that they are seperated, unless there is some game mechanic I am not aware of.

Not a game mechanic, but a clear ideological difference, I would argue a bigger one than the one between the so-called "leninists" and "stalinists".

 

[EmperorTojo]

Not a game mechanic, but a clear ideological difference, I would argue a bigger one, than the one between the so-called "leninists" and "stalinists".

Where is the ideological difference? The forbbiden jew question? I'll accept enlightenment. In my opinion, National Socialism or Nazism is really just German fascism. The empire of Japan practiced a type of Japanese fascism too. They had their differences (like one I pointed out,) but in its core they were all the same.

What Wiki says:

"Nazism, or National Socialism in full (German: Nationalsozialismus), is the ideology and practice associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party and state as well as other related far-right groups. Usually characterised as a form of fascism that incorporates scientific racism and antisemitism, Nazism originally developed from the influences of pan-Germanism, the Völkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture in post-First World War Germany, which many Germans felt had been left humiliated by the Treaty of Versailles."

Seems to be what I said.

 

[Contravarius]

Where is the ideological difference? The forbbiden jew question? I'll accept enlightenment. In my opinion, National Socialism or Nazism is really just German fascism. The empire of Japan practiced a type of Japanese fascism too. They had their differences, but in its core they were all the same.

Well, for starters I would argue that one is a left-wing ideology (National SOCIALISM) locating in the traditionalist-progressivist scale on the "progressive" side of things, while the other one is economically still somewhat between the Right and Left, a synthesis, also, fascism is ideologically much more of a traditionalist movement, it's forefathers were the French reactionaries.

So, my argument is, National Socialism is a progressivist-socialist movement with (hardcore) nationalism infused in it, while fascism is a traditionalist-nationalist movement, which was primarily influenced by both catholic and national-syndicalist economics. One is left-wing, the other is right-wing.

This is what I personally think, but there tends to be a lot of different opinions on these matters. Like with most things in life, there's seems to be no clear answer.

(Also, I was really amused by how fast the "Jewish Question" popped out, nowadays this seems to be the only thing in peoples minds when talking about the Germanies and Italies of this period.)

 

[EmperorTojo]

Well, for starters I would argue that one is a left-wing ideology (National SOCIALISM)

:huh:

If I make a fascist party based on a fascist ideology then name it "The National Socialist Party," am I a leftist? Fascism could be a perverted form of communism, though, if you like to think of it that way. I point out that national syndicalism is very much that as well. Mussolini himself was a communist when he was younger. His interpretation and blend of nationalism created fascism as we know it. Mussolini's fascism was an inspiration for Hitler.

(About the "Jewish Question," I only really mentioned it since there is no other significant difference between Italy and Germany that I could think of, and I have seen people argue for such to make fascism look "prettier." Fascists in italy weren't really negative of jews untill some time.)

 

[SDSkinner]

The difference between National Socialism and fascism? Let me channel Orinsol for a bit (he goes into great detail by the way).

Fascism is a third way between communism and parliamentary democracy, whose goal is to deal with class conflict and the issue of overproduction. National Socialism is a leader focused totalitarian ideology whose goal is to secure the future of the race through acquiring more land and crushing the Bolsheviks.

(About the "Jewish Question," I only really mentioned it since there is no other significant difference between Italy and Germany that I could think of, and I have seen people argue for such to make fascism look "prettier." Fascists in italy weren't really negative of jews untill some time.)

Fascist Italy did not have a furher like Germany; Mussolini lost power because the king fired him. Fascist Italy was not based entirely on preparing for war; unlike Germany. Fascist Italy had much better relations which the church (with Catholicism edging towards state religion); Germany was busy subordinating the church as much as possible. Fascist Italy heavily embraced conservative tradition; Germany had Himler. Italian fascism held all white people in common and that people could be improved by culture (blacks of course got the short end); the Germans divided up whites with certain groups considered inherently inferior.

On the subject of ideologies for the game, I don't see why we need so much granulation. There is essentially democracy, communist, totalitarian right and authoritarian right in terms of game mechanics.

 

[SFSLovenought]

The only change to the political system I want is recognition that unlike Communists or Democracy, any alliance between Ultra-nationalist countries would probably dissolve in the absence of a common threat.
I think The Onion sums my thoughts up perfectly.

Japan Forms Alliance With White Supremacists in Well-Thought-Out Scheme
From the East Asian Correspondent, Sept 1, 1939. -- In a course of action praised by many as "far-sighted" and "tactically brilliant," the Japanese government has sworn its allegiance to the Axis powers led by white-supremacist Nazi Germany. In a formal statement, Japanese leaders declared, "We wish to be counted among the loyal allies of this back-stabbing, racist hate nation."

Following the announcement, Japanese General and military leader Hideki Tojo told reporters, "We are pleased to enter into an alliance with the paranoid, xenophobic government of Nazi Germany. We anticipate a deeply enriching exchange of our military aid with their deep-seated hated of our non-white heritage."

Tojo went on to say that the "unbeatable team" of Germans and Japanese will one day dominate the industrialized world as "Aryans and those hated by Aryans, working together."

Likening their war instincts to those of "a very advanced clan of yellow apes," German Chancellor Adolf Hitler praised the government and military of Japan.

"I salute you, chinky-dinky rat men, who have been given life by the confused hand of some long-dead pagan deity," he said. "When Germany stands victorious on a conquered Earth, and Aryan supermen wipe out the undesirable mud races one by one, your like will surely survive to be among the last to be exterminated."

 

[Tormodius]

What i didnt like with ideologies in HOI3 is they did not make any big difference, apart from which neutral countries would be possible to invite to factions, the political pie-diagram and what ideology their staff leaders had. (which was mostly just flavour anyway)

Now with HOI4 these ideologies i think should have more clear effects, percentage-wise would be most intuitive. So the more you go towards one end, the percentage could move leadership or manpower modifier, or production consumer goods, supplies, efficiency etc. giving you different values for different areas, depending on which end you are drifting towards.

For example with high percentage to communism, you could get better manpower modifier and production efficiency, while suffer on leadership and overall quality of troops etc. If balanced correctly, that would be kinda more realistic.

 

[Contravarius]

On the subject of ideologies for the game, I don't see why we need so much granulation. There is essentially democracy, communist, totalitarian right and authoritarian right in terms of game mechanics.

That's an interesting though.
But, on the other hand, I really enjoyed looking at those multicolored pie charts

 

[Calders]

The reality is virtually impossible to represent in a sensible way as its so complicated, therefore the game mechanic is doomed to be a simplification.

I would agree that National Socialism isn't really an ideology its just the German version of Fascism, however you perhaps need a distinction between Fascism and Nationalism. The first being a movement that has its background in the poorer sections of society (like Germany and Italy), and the second coming from more established parts of society (primarily the established military). Its also true that there is no real difference between Leninism and Stalinism (the only thing Stalin change was that he abandoned the concept of a world revolution). The ideologies I used with the HOI3 mechanic were:

Fascism, Nationalist, National Conservative
Social Conservative, Classical Liberal, Liberal Socialist, Social Democrat
Revisionist Marxist, Orthodox Marxist, Marxist-Leninist

This is far from perfect (for example it has no real way of representing anarchic ideologies, as seen in the Spanish Civil war).

 

[EmperorTojo]

I think The Onion sums my thoughts up perfectly.

Lol, good joke.

Its also true that there is no real difference between Leninism and Stalinism (the only thing Stalin change was that he abandoned the concept of a world revolution.)

True, considering he continued the doctrine of Marxism-Leninism but yeah, the revolution sort of died with Lenin since Stalin never made an effort to take any further step into an actual communist society, but he did industrialize. Somewhere before the 50s he also claimed that the Soviet Union had gotten rid of capitalism completely, which wasn't really the case. In a weird sense he was a conservative revolutionary.

Your ideologies are pretty good too, I think. Still, I see no real difference between fascism and nationalism? Are fascists not nationalists? All of the fascistic states have been nationalistic for sure.

 

[EmperorTojo]

EDIT: Double post, sorry.

 

[Calders]

Your ideologies are pretty good too, I think. Still, I see no real difference between fascism and nationalism? Are fascists not nationalists? All of the fascistic states have been nationalistic for sure.

I kind of agree with this, that list was largely chosen to fit with the 3 point system in HOI3 so its not great. I would say there are basically two types of nationalistic states, one that makes the state the centre of everything and one that supports corporations. But that is covered with Fascist and National Conservative, so you are right that 'nationalism' becomes unnecessary.

The same can be said of the communist ideologies I list, having 3 is really too many and the difference between them too small. So you only really need Revisionist Marxist and Marxist-Leninist.

For HOI4 I mainly hope that we have something that doesn't equate ideologies to factions in the simplistic way that HOI3 did. It's certainly true that by the end of the war some of the allies were Fascist.

 

[Contravarius]

The same can be said of the communist ideologies I list, having 3 is really too many and the difference between them too small. So you only really need Revisionist Marxist and Marxist-Leninist.

Well, we could bring in the syndicalism or anarchism as a third, ahistorical option, but this almost certainly not gonna happen.
Wait, we still have the "left-wing radical" option, have we not? Nevermind, this covers both of them nicely.

For HOI4 I mainly hope that we have something that doesn't equate ideologies to factions in the simplistic way that HOI3 did. It's certainly true that by the end of the war some of the allies were Fascist.

Wait, I can't seem to understand. "Some of the allies were fascist"? Could you please elaborate?

 

[Calders]

Wait, I can't seem to understand. "Some of the allies were fascist"? Could you please elaborate?

I was thinking of Brazil specifically (joined the Allies in 1942), and I would describe them as having a Fascist regime. The same can probably be said of some of the other central american allies.