Changes to Ideas Groups in new DLC

[Chevaresqye]

Now, arguably increasing training on its own would produce a more efficient army without necessarily bringing down the number of troops who could fight (at least in the time period in question)- though in reality it would also mean a substantial increase in the cost per person. But usually increasing an armies quality does not just mean increasing the quality of the training. It also means running quality control on the men themselves, to see if they are up to the task of fighting in a professional or semi-professional army. Since there will be people who can not fight in that style, the number of men available might go down.

That is the only questionable example. Increasing the number of men who can fight will always decrease their overall quality- even today that is true, and it was probably much more true during the time period in question. No only is the government drudging up men who wouldn't normally be available for one reason or another, but the infrastructure of the army would take a while to upgrade itself to properly sort out the increased number of men. If the men received the same training as before (which would take a while to implement) then the total cost of the army should rise and the amount of food produced (or, in the abstract, 'taxes') would go down since there were less men minding the fields.

That is not what idea in game represent. Most idea ingame represent reform that can increase quantity without hurting the quality. Quantity ingame does not represent policy that pollutes army with unqualified soldier.

And no one mentioned anything as 'mass genocide'. Religions typically did not spread on a mass scale through overt violence, contrary to popular memory. More subtle forms of compulsion, however, were commonly used, and adopting humanism would make some of those tools impossible to utilize.

Humanism also open new tool for religious conversion, while harsher religous policy can cause negative impact on religious conversion. So those two negate each other, so there is no penalty for humanism.

 

[mgoetze]

Administrative
-10% adm tech cost instead of -10% inflation reduction cost

-10% inflation reduction cost was one of the stupidest ideas in the game.
That said, taking administrative first has been almost automatic of late, and it'll still be almost as automatic (but see below). I just won't necessarily stop after the first 3 ideas now.

Humanist new idea group
+25% religious unity
-2 revolt risk
+3 tolerance to heretics
-10 years of nationalism
-50% accepted culture threshold
+33% better relation over time
+3 tolerance to heathens
-10% idea cost

Wow, this is completely OP. I might pay 2000 points for -50% accepted culture threshold alone. Throw in +25% religious unity and this is definitely an every-game idea group.

+25% income from vassal

Are they going to fix the bugs related to this while they're at it?

-33% claim fabrication time moved from diplomatic
-25% diplomatic annextion cost
-10% aggresive expansion

This seems way better than any of the other diplomatic idea groups currently (still not as good as adminstrative, humanist or various military idea groups though.)

Maritime new idea group

Meh

Naval ideas moved from diplomatic

I never took it before, I definitely won't take it now!

Offensive
-10% regiment recruitment time instead of manpower bonsu

Yeah I guess it's still powerful enough to warrant a nerf, though forced march hasn't been so important lately against the AI.

 

[neondt]

Awesome. I guess Humanism is a no-brainer for Poland/Commonwealth. Naval and Maritime suit different nations nicely. I suppose the Hansa benefits more from Maritime while England benefits more from Naval (though I think as England I'd pick both).

 

[Ivashanko]

I will concede on every point. Suppose though, that penalties for taking quantity (ie your men now fight worse than normal) is implemented. Does it make for good gameplay? I'm still of the opinion that the penalty for taking an idea group should be the opportunity cost of taking something else instead. If you take Humanism, your missionaries should convert worse than someone with religious NOT because Humanism takes away some state-led conversion tools but because religious makes missionaries better to convert. A person who takes quality will have troops that fight better than someone with quantity, but the person with quantity should have more NOT because quality has inbuilt manpower pool penalties but because quantity just gives manpower bonuses.

This method feels a lot less forced to me, which is why I prefer it. Having an inbuilt penalty just for taking an idea group makes me not want to bother with taking it if I can help it, regardless of what it is. Why take Quality and lower my manpower pool to make my guys fight better if I can take Offensive and mostly do the same thing through having better generals without lowering my manpower?

I was mostly arguing that the negatives make sense. If it hurts gameplay then it should absolutely not be put into the game- though I don't know how exactly the changes would affect gameplay.

Given that Paradox has a lot of other stuff to do, I believe this is the job for modders.

That is not what idea in game represent. Most idea ingame represent reform that can increase quantity without hurting the quality. Quantity ingame does not represent policy that pollutes army with unqualified soldier.

Humanism also open new tool for religious conversion, while harsher religous policy can cause negative impact on religious conversion. So those two negate each other, so there is no penalty for humanism.

I understand that, and don't have an issue with this being an abstracted mechanic. I really was just arguing that having the negatives made perfect sense.

 

[Freudia]

I was mostly arguing that the negatives make sense. If it hurts gameplay then it should absolutely not be put into the game- though I don't know how exactly the changes would affect gameplay.

Given that Paradox has a lot of other stuff to do, I believe this is the job for modders.

Fair enough. Definitely would agree for it being a job for modders, which is why I'm glad it's in VeF and not vanilla.

 

[Haccoude]

This. You don't get -10% discipline for taking Quantity after all. Though being able to chose both Humanist and Religious or Quantity/Quality should give some bad events. It doesn't really hold up.

Prussia did it. Though it might be appropriate with some events where the incredible military focus of your country puts some strain on it, and you are forced to choose between reductions in a Quality bonus, a Quantity bonus or some form of cost to keep up the military focus.

 

[jrk264]

Is there some reason to include the completely blank ideas like quicker recruitment or reductions in the reduce inflation cost? It seems like it would be better to have something at least arguably useful in those spots and just reduce the numbers on the other ideas if it's a balance thing. It's just so frustrating to drop 400 points on an idea that provides absolutely zero value just because it's the next in line.

It also seems like it would make sense to move all the ship combat bonuses out of quality and into the new maritime group, replacing them with ideas that improve your military (since it's a military idea group... seems legit) instead of making up new ship bonuses.

 

[Pornek]

No idea why everyone is hyping the Humanism so much.

Actual religious unity beats out artificial unity by a large margin when playing a catholic country. So I guess its only really worthy to take as protestant or reformed when big, but when youre big catholic is a lot better. So its not really useful at all. People seem to have many problems with rebels when they value the bonuses so high, BROT is good, ideacost is solid, culture is good, - RR is solid. Nothing to call OP though. Cheaper/faster culture conversion from religious is also an interesting change.

Innovative getting reduced inflation cost, is a change I also really like which probably means I wont take it in the majority of my games.

Influence seems to be decent, the additional Diplomat is still what makes Diplomatic a lot better. Better relations beats out AE reduction/decay anyways.

 

[Zwirbaum]

So Innovative + Humanist + Poland/Commonwealth/France+Edict of Nantes = minimum 75% Religious Unity? Even when we consider that somehow not a single province grants you religious unity?

 

[IIWW]

So Innovative + Humanist + Poland/Commonwealth/France+Edict of Nantes = minimum 75% Religious Unity? Even when we consider that somehow not a single province grants you religious unity?

Religious unity was moved from innovative, which was somehow omited in this thread.

 

[Zwirbaum]

Then what is it in it's place on Innovative idea?

 

[Pornek]

Then what is it in it's place on Innovative idea?

Reduced inflation cost.

 

[saegoto]

added and edited

Religious
cheaper culture converting instead of tolerance

Innovative
- % infaltion reduction cost instead of religious unity

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So Innovative + Humanist + Poland/Commonwealth/France+Edict of Nantes = minimum 75% Religious Unity? Even when we consider that somehow not a single province grants you religious unity?

Right now, all Confucian nations an the ones you mention above can reach 100% unity in heretic provinces regardless, leaving only heathen provinces an issue. Considering that for Christian nations with their absurdly ridiculous conversion strength that only truly sees opposition from religious zeal or local autonomy, this tolerance already leaves you with 100% unity, the unity aspect is going to be somewhat limited.

Also it's worth noting that reformed can get quite high tolerance as well, though I'm not sure they get full unity at 0 legitimacy.

 

[Alblaka]

These are definitely changes I'm looking forward to.

 

[Pornek]

added and edited

Religious
cheaper culture converting instead of tolerance

By the looks of it the tolerance of heretic was changed to heathen conversion rate. Where exactly the culture converting was added isnt clear - I suspect to the stab modifier or as new finisher (plz no).

 

[Pshek]

It is oficcial changes of Paradox or community suggestions?

And why we haven't bonus for naval supply limit in naval ideas?

 

[highsis]

Humanist new idea group
+25% religious unity
-2 revolt risk
+3 tolerance to heretics
-10 years of nationalism
-50% accepted culture threshold
+33% better relation over time
+3 tolerance to heathens
-10% idea cost

Is this a joke? So overpowered.

 

[oblio-]

No idea why everyone is hyping the Humanism so much.

Actual religious unity beats out artificial unity by a large margin when playing a catholic country. So I guess its only really worthy to take as protestant or reformed when big, but when youre big catholic is a lot better. So its not really useful at all. People seem to have many problems with rebels when they value the bonuses so high, BROT is good, ideacost is solid, culture is good, - RR is solid. Nothing to call OP though. Cheaper/faster culture conversion from religious is also an interesting change.

If you're Reformed and you focus on Stability you get -2 revolt risk. So that base -4 revolt risk from Humanism.
You also get +5 tolerance of heretics from being Reformed + Humanism and +3 tolerance of heathens from the same combo.
So, basically you have -4 revolt risk in Reformed provinces, -9 revolt risk for heretic provinces, -7 revolt risk for heathen provinces.
If you're in the HRE or you join it, that's -7/-12/-10.

Add the lack/much shorter of nationalism and the lower threshold for accepted cultures and you can get some crazy revolt risk going without skipping a beat. Like say, when you've got huge overextension

So Innovative + Humanist + Poland/Commonwealth/France+Edict of Nantes = minimum 75% Religious Unity? Even when we consider that somehow not a single province grants you religious unity?

Innovative's bonus has moved to Humanist. So only +25% minimum religious unity from idea groups.
And if you want high religious unity, get the Timurids => 50% base. Timurids + Humanist looks really strong now - for certain play styles.

 

[saegoto]

It is oficcial changes of Paradox or community suggestions?

this info is from beta stream

And why we haven't bonus for naval supply limit in naval ideas?

naval is now 'quality' naval military ideas group. naval forcelimit was moved to maritime and quantity