Changes to German AI with regards to Gibraltar, Nationalist Spain.

[Alerias]

thats something that should be fixed, how can you claim to be neutral while allowing one side to use all of their armed forces offensively from your territory?

Franco did allow the Kriegsmarine to resupply submarines - and to a lesser extent, the Luftwaffe to resupply planes - on Spanish territory many times during the war. Though each was a covert act, authorized specifically, rather than a blanket "military access" deal; captured documents hint as as much as 60 instances of the event between 1940 and 1943. After the Axis lost Lybia, though, Spain refused further requests.

The UK was aware, but did not pursue the issue; at least not publicly.

A lesser-known facet of the war, yes, but these details of history show that some things we believe impossible did in fact happen.

 

[Panzerschiffe]

Historically Spain was devastated and pending of foreign oil. There were several conditions that Franco put to join the Axis, one was a lot of oil, and second the French possessions in northern africa, at least Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and even dakar, Franco joining the Axis or granting military access should mean a review of the tripartite pact with Italy, the redistribution of Vichy France possessions and should cost a helluva oil

Exactly, the event should have drastic effects on relations with vichy france. Also, when spain joins or as a condition to have them join, germany should be forced to give them resources. It needs to be possible but not necessarily a sure thing.
This would be a good event to have. A kind of 'lean on spain' event where you hope they will want to join them if you woo them.

 

[unmerged(91061)]

Not well there is also the preceeding factors such as how much support Germany gives Franco in the civil war. Presumabley if they're very forward and strong in their supprt Spain may be willing to join the Axis for less, or even then and there.

 

[33Vortex]

Not if you manage to secure the british isles.

 

[krieger11b]

In HOI Gilbralta is so critical I would just invade Spain anyways. Attacking from the Sea in real life would have been pure suicide, with all the coastal artillery and a large Royal Navy forces would annihilated anything the Germans would have thrown at them. A paradrop, which would have been the longest ranged one in history by far, would have had little back up. I guess if they took Crete they could have taken Gilbralta, but a prior agreement from Spain to allow supplies through Spain would have made or breaked the entire possibility.

I think a lean option might be nice, I am not sure how they would have done. With threats and few promises of rewards for cooperation? Spain had a lot to lose, though in 1940 the UK looked pretty beat. With Gilbralta though, they could have made a pretty good offer on "future" oil promises, and France had enough food to get Spain by until then.

Unlimted U-boots patroling the Med, did mean that Malta would most likely have fallen too. Leaving the Royal Navy into a den of wolves with the luftwaffe with no enemy fighter cover in most of the Med.

On a side note when I was in Eqypt I saw two wrecks of merchant ships sunk by Axis aircraft on the Southern tip of the Sinai penisula to give an idea of what the Luftwaffe was able to do historically, imagine the nightmare of having their Western Flank secure and able to concentrate 100% on the allies in the Eastern Mediteranian.

 

[King]

I can say with absolute certainty that there will not be events for Spain joining the Axis. There is perfectly good diplomatic system that gives the Axis powers the ability to win Nationalist Spain over to the Axis cause, they can use that if that is what they want to do.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I can say with absolute certainty that there will not be events for Spain joining the Axis. There is perfectly good diplomatic system that gives the Axis powers the ability to win Nationalist Spain over to the Axis cause, they can use that if that is what they want to do.

But will the diplomatic system handle the conflicting Territorial claims of Nationalist spain, Italy and Vichy France? Logically all 3 of them can't exist happy together but Sofar nothing have been revealed in the diplomatic system to prevent this.

Otherwise Id suggest an event with an ultimatum to Vichy France where they will either surrender peacefully or be invaded by Axis Italy, Germany and Spain at the same time. Secret Molotov-Ribbentrop style Negotiations between Italy and Spain would logically include splitting up Vichy in the same manner Poland is splitted up by events.

Another option is to make the Create Vichy event move spain much further from the Axis.

 

[King]

But will the diplomatic system handle the conflicting Territorial claims of Nationalist spain, Italy and Vichy France? Logically all 3 of them can't exist happy together but Sofar nothing have been revealed in the diplomatic system to prevent this.

Otherwise Id suggest an event with an ultimatum to Vichy France where they will either surrender peacefully or be invaded by Axis Italy, Germany and Spain at the same time. Secret Molotov-Ribbentrop style Negotiations between Italy and Spain would logically include splitting up Vichy in the same manner Poland is splitted up by events.

From one of the Dev Diaries, if a member of a faction (say the Axis) has core claims on your provinces then you get an intrinsic drift away from that faction. If you have core claims on a member of a faction you also get a drift away from that faction.

 

[unmerged(131221)]

So there wont be any possibility to make hidden deals?
F.e:
1. Offer Spain Morroco and Gibraltar if it joins the Axis?
2. Make R-M style pact with Italy and Spain. Italy gets Tunisia and Spain Morocco and Vichy has no other choice to agree or be crushed?

Maybe thats too much. But it would be nice to offer someone something that it may find attractive for f.e alliance.

 

[King]

So there wont be any possibility to make hidden deals?
F.e:
1. Offer Spain Morroco and Gibraltar if it joins the Axis?
2. Make R-M style pact with Italy and Spain. Italy gets Tunisia and Spain Morocco and Vichy has no other choice to agree or be crushed?

Maybe thats too much. But it would be nice to offer someone something that it may find attractive for f.e alliance.

No there won't be.

 

[krieger11b]

Spanish cooperation is unessesary for the Riech

Anyways unless the AI is greatly improved for minors the German Army is much better at defending Spain, I really wish that the game would allow a player to costruct AA, and fortifications in allied terratory. This more than anything prevents or delays me from releasing puppets, well that and the Axis list on the diplomatic screen getting spammed with useless puppets, making it more of a pain to get the nations that can actually benefit in time with blueprints.

There is another good question, with research speed and I am guessing quality relating to "practical" experience in the field, how is this going to modify how much a blueprint helps.

 

[unmerged(131812)]

Gibraltar

Thanks to the Dev's for stopping the moronic warsolving diplospree.

Not ONE of these posts has really covered one of the biggest issues concerning Spain joining the axis, and a real diplomatic consequense of
an ahistoric attack and seizure of gibraltar, namely the neutral USA's reaction.

Every single post is about wether or not the Axis should have an easier solution to the gibraltar problems, some even suggesting that pushing some diplomatic button the world would change to their favor. We already have too much of that in HOI 2.

Steamrolling of Spain/Turkey has been the single most problematic aspect of multiplayer of Hoi 2, since the mechanics of an american reaction really does not exist. All the initiative rests with the axis, and this has resulted in numours different houserules to balance the nonsense.

To experienced players this is common sense, an isolationalist USA would not be isolating itself into its own death, regardless of what the diplomacy/steamrolling players out there seem to believe.

The debate should really be about the "realistic" consequenses of spain/turkey joining or being attacked by the axis, not making such scenarios more common. As of now there are no real consequense.

The C