Changes to German AI with regards to Gibraltar, Nationalist Spain.

[Smokey2]

IMHO ancor got one of the major factors right, as soon as Hitler set up Vichy France and preserved the French North African colonies any thoughts of Franco's Spain allying with Germany went out the window. Franco needed at least Morrocco & French West Africa (including Dakar) plus Gibraltar. Hitler couldn't promise the same territory to both Vichy France and Spain (well not and get away with it by 1940).

 

[blue emu]

IMHO ancor got one of the major factors right, as soon as Hitler set up Vichy France and preserved the French North African colonies any thoughts of Franco's Spain allying with Germany went out the window. Franco needed at least Morrocco & French West Africa (including Dakar) plus Gibraltar. Hitler couldn't promise the same territory to both Vichy France and Spain (well not and get away with it by 1940).

It gets even worse if you include Italy in the equation. It was very unlikely that any TWO (let alone all three) of those powers... Italy, Spain and Vichy... could see their claims satisfied simultaneously. Until quite late (TOO late), Hitler respected Mussolini, and felt a genuine gratitude towards him for the pre-war Diplomatic help Musso had given him.

IRL, Hitler backed Musso... which in practice meant that he had little to offer either Vichy or Spain.

 

[dsteve3]

I hope that kind of diplomatic negotiation will be meaningful in HoI3, and be communicated to the players. I always hate having to guess how to accomplish diplomatic goals, or resorting to cheezy 'walk-throughs'.

There should be some kind of AI dialogue that guides the players, making suggestions and warning of consequences. If the German player chooses to support Mussolini, he will compromise his relations with Vichy France and/or Spain.

The historical figures of the time would have known what was going on, the players should too.

 

[petester]

I think that this would be realistic - but if Spain came onside, then there would be a heavy price to pay.

1) Dissent increase for Spain.
2) Possibly a "quasi revolt" for Vichy france - ie, fleet may flee to Allies, Certainly vichy units out of the mainland europe zone would defect - possibly bringing the entire North African coastline into the conflict zone. If you read history, one reason for not 100% pushing for spain was because of the tenacious hold the axis had over the current vichy colonies... If they suddenly flipped sides (as if they would have if spain tried to take over...) then this would upset the balance of power in north africa.
3) less appeasement by Vichy itself in dealing with Germany. More hostility

 

[unmerged(37697)]

While we're on the issue of fleets, just a brief question, if I may...

In HoI2, when one managed to get hold of a fleet belonging to another nation, the way the model system worked meant that, for example, the Bismarck would equate itself to being of the King George V-class.

I have a feeling this will be different in HoI3, mainly due to the diaries we've seen which talk about the ability for a player to have stuff built overseas, and so on.

Anyway, my question relates to naval stuff primarily, but it could certain apply across the board: if I managed to capture or otherwise get hold of an enemy fleet, will it retain its unique stats & models, or simply become a clone of a similar fleet if I had built it?

I hope that's clear enough. o

 

[unmerged(81995)]

... if I managed to capture or otherwise get hold of an enemy fleet, ...

the game is broken anyway.

Regards,

Thorsten

 

[unmerged(37697)]

the game is broken anyway.

Regards,

Thorsten

Thank you for that.

But, in HoI3, say the Allies (or Germans) get hold of the French fleet, &c.

They should get the original ships, right? Dunkerque-class, &c.

 

[Kikaider]

Thank you for that.

But, in HoI3, say the Allies (or Germans) get hold of the French fleet, &c.

They should get the original ships, right? Dunkerque-class, &c.

I don't see why not, as every ship is defined by its individual components.

 

[unmerged(37697)]

I don't see why not, as every ship is defined by its individual components.

Yes, this is what I'd hoped for.

I'm glad we will finally see differences between the various battleship (and cruiser) categories. Having all the main battleships with the same stats is kind of depressing. o

I want HMS Hood to kick ass (on paper), even if an unlucky hit does kill her.

 

[Neomann]

A more viable solution might be a massive paratroop operation, but that would be alot of IC spent to secure one base.. It really depends how well they defend it.

I don't know, I've managed to get military acces trough Nationalist Spain with Germany, got paratroops, make them go to sevilla then tried to make a mission on Gibraltar... But I was unable to simply attack Gibraltar from Spanish Soil.... The engine of AOI2 doesn't allow you to attack even if you have military access trough a country if this country is not at war with your enemy...

So, one question, will it be possible to make paratroops assault from neutral countries aka sweden or Finland or Spain (in this case)? Historically the Luftwaffe when to spanish civil war... Maybe it will be great to have te opportunity to make an aerial assault on gibraltar from Spain... As we seen today air operations of USA trough friendly country airbases, wich were neutral in the war....

 

[unmerged(110051)]

I think that this would be realistic - but if Spain came onside, then there would be a heavy price to pay.

1) Dissent increase for Spain.
2) Possibly a "quasi revolt" for Vichy france - ie, fleet may flee to Allies, Certainly vichy units out of the mainland europe zone would defect - possibly bringing the entire North African coastline into the conflict zone. If you read history, one reason for not 100% pushing for spain was because of the tenacious hold the axis had over the current vichy colonies... If they suddenly flipped sides (as if they would have if spain tried to take over...) then this would upset the balance of power in north africa.
3) less appeasement by Vichy itself in dealing with Germany. More hostility

I do not see increased dissent in Spain, especially if there is war with the USSR. Historically they sent a division to help Germany to fight on the eastern front but just on the first day they could have sent few divisions due to the large number of volunteers.

 

[PIT_AMERO]

I do not see increased dissent in Spain, especially if there is war with the USSR. Historically they sent a division to help Germany to fight on the eastern front but just on the first day they could have sent few divisions due to the large number of volunteers.

A country destroyed by a war and very deeply devided, to jump in another war, where they will be blockaded, raided and bombed. And you still think that there won't be dissent?

 

[unmerged(135331)]

Remember people, I'm not saying that Nationalist Spain and Nazi Germany have to form an alliance, just that Spain should be more likely to assist Germany in Operation Felix, whether that's providing military access or whatever. The important thing for me is that Germany make some sort of try for Gibraltar, however it's done.

Does anyone know if HoI 3 will change the thing where you can't attack from a country you have military access too, but isn't at war with the country you're attacking? Or will it remain the same way it was in HoI 2.

 

[Markusw7]

military access in HOI2 = transit rights meaning you are allowed to move through their land to land controlled by you from land controlled by you. If Spain had allowed the Germans to launch an attack from Spain in the eyes of the allies they are defacto allied with Germany.

 

[Neomann]

well, in HOI2 you could use spanish ports to attack the Royal Navy, but the Spain was not in war with UK... So, why not the same with aerial attack?

 

[Markusw7]

well, in HOI2 you could use spanish ports to attack the Royal Navy, but the Spain was not in war with UK... So, why not the same with aerial attack?

thats something that should be fixed, how can you claim to be neutral while allowing one side to use all of their armed forces offensively from your territory?

 

[Neomann]

Yeap, you could made naval assault, naval missions from spanish ports... But you could not attack from the spanish land Gibraltar and you could not make an aerial assault on Gibraltar....

The main thing is if you use spanish ports to equip and tu supply your navy, your navy cand make attacks in the sea because the sea has an internationnal status... So i should be with air too? or not? Or what?
A decision must be made here... what you can do and can't do from a neutral state that give you military access.... Another case is the supplies and troops that send Germany trough sweden to help the german troops in the norway conquest...

 

[Markusw7]

Yeap, you could made naval assault, naval missions from spanish ports... But you could not attack from the spanish land Gibraltar and you could not make an aerial assault on Gibraltar....

The main thing is if you use spanish ports to equip and tu supply your navy, your navy cand make attacks in the sea because the sea has an internationnal status... So i should be with air too? or not? Or what?
A decision must be made here... what you can do and can't do from a neutral state that give you military access.... Another case is the supplies and troops that send Germany trough sweden to help the german troops in the norway conquest...

did not happen until Norway had already fallen. German troops could only move through Sweden between Norway and Denmark AFTER Norway was already defeated. Allowing such an act while Norway was still fighting would have been an act of war.

Absolutely no attacks of any kind should be allowed from neutral countries.

 

[unmerged(138184)]

I think the Spanish/Gibraltar issue should definitely be modeled in the AI - it is one of those hinge points that can dramatically alter the subsequent course of events AND was under some serious consideration historically.

The salient issue for all of that should be the course of the Spanish Civil War - the extent of Germany's help should matter a great deal. ALSO, even more so, the relative duration of the war should play in. The devastated condition of the Spanish economy after the war was a major drag on Franco's eagerness to get involved in the war (and he certainly had moments along the way where he toyed strongly with the idea.)

Another thing - build in a small chance that the Germans decide to go through Spain and get at Gibraltar WITHOUT Franco's consent. That was something the Germans gave some actual thought to in 1940.

German-Franquist cooperation in the Civil War was far more a matter of geopolitics than of ideology. There was no great affinity or affection between the two sides. You absolutely could have seen Nationalist Spain fighting on the side of Britain and France if the Germans had decided to "Felix" things without Spain's consent.

 

[Alerias]

Spain probably had too low chances to join the Axis in HoI2.

Historically, if it had not been for Canaris' meddling and advising Franco to make unrealistic demands, I suspect Franco would have joined in in 1940. Yes, Spain wasn't ready at all; but neither was Italy, and they still threw in the towel.

Aggressively pursuing a Spanish alliance shouldn't be impossible or very unrealistic for the German AI, much less for a German player.

Flip side of the coin? Hundred more beaches to defend against the UK, of course!