Changes to German AI with regards to Gibraltar, Nationalist Spain.

[unmerged(135331)]

In HoI III, I believe that German AI should more actively pursue Gibraltar. It's an extremely important in game position and was very important in the real World War II. Nearly all of the German High Command supported the seizure of Gibraltar and even a possible occupation of Spain in order to assist the North African Campaign. There was also some diplomatic discussion between Hitler and Franco on the plan. I propose that there should be some sort of event where Nationalist Spain can choose whether or not they wish to give Germany military access through their country, the event could be called "Operation Felix" which was the German code name for the plan to take Gibraltar. The British AI could also be altered to provide a more energetic defense of the province. I think that the battle for Gibraltar could make a great addition to the game.

P.S. Do the production team people read the topics on this board?

 

[Fortium]

Yes, they sure do.

 

[unmerged(135331)]

I forgot to mention that the event should occur some time shortly after France has fallen, July/August of 1940.

 

[PIT_AMERO]

Yeah, it should be an option before the Axis.
But if they go for it, I don't see how they can succeed.
They may put some presure in the short term on the Britons, but in the long term that will be very beneficial for the allies.

 

[unmerged(135331)]

I see that it would detract troops from the Eastern Front, but it would also greatly benefit the North African Campaign.

 

[PIT_AMERO]

I see that it would detract troops from the Eastern Front, but it would also greatly benefit the North African Campaign.

If they capture it, yes it will help them in Africa.
But the success in doubt and the victory won’t be decisive.
Plus that, that will force the Germans to defend thousands of kilometers more coastlines from raiding and invasions.

I support the introduction of this option, but it won't be easy for accomplishing.

 

[unmerged(56754)]

So what? You want it 100% likely German AI will invade Gibraltar/Spain or ally with them in every game?

If the German AI does have some access to Gibraltar, it does try hard to capture it, but making the AI unreastically aggressive to something they had no chance of assualting doesnt make alot of sense ...

Besides, Spanish AI does have a choice of allying, although very low, as it should be.

 

[Manziel]

Yeah, it should be an option before the Axis.
But if they go for it, I don't see how they can succeed.
They may put some presure in the short term on the Britons, but in the long term that will be very beneficial for the allies.

Well, capturing Gibraltar is essential for a submarine-strategy as it will force the British convoys to take the long route around Africa. Gibraltar is also important as a naval base, you can control most of the atlantic ocean with a strong fleet based at Gibraltar. Controlling Gibraltar also helps your security as you can repair your fleets in the Spanish mediterranean bases where the risk of enemy port-strikes is a lot lower

 

[unmerged(95429)]

I would say that if it were made an event it then the Spanish, upon agreeing to give military acces/support the attack on Gibraltar, would ally with Germany seeing as that was a part of the discussions between Hitler and Franco. The Germans would also supply Spain with supplies. The agreement would also mean that Germany never gets the Blue division, as that was Franco's way of staying out of the Axis and yet still being of use to Hitler.

 

[PIT_AMERO]

Well, capturing Gibraltar is essential for a submarine-strategy as it will force the British convoys to take the long route around Africa. Gibraltar is also important as a naval base, you can control most of the atlantic ocean with a strong fleet based at Gibraltar. Controlling Gibraltar also helps your security as you can repair your fleets in the Spanish mediterranean bases where the risk of enemy port-strikes is a lot lower

If I'm not mistaken the UK was already using the way around Africa to supply its forces, right?
As to Gibraltar as a naval base, the germans and italians are unable to make an impact around their own coasts, so what is left to base a fleet there to control the ocean.

 

[33Vortex]

Strategically this was a option for Germany at the time, it would add a lot to the game if such a event was implemented. As we know historically this was in fact a major objective for the Axis. To secure Gibraltar means at least partial control of the Mediterranean. A 6 year old could figure out the consequences of Axis control of the Suez and Gibraltar.

So... what I'm saying here is that the event would surely add to the game, historical outcome or not.

What happened historically is only partially relevant as HoI is in many ways about taking ahistorical paths to victory.

 

[PIT_AMERO]

Strategically this was a option for Germany at the time, it would add a lot to the game if such a event was implemented. As we know historically this was in fact a major objective for the Axis. To secure Gibraltar means at least partial control of the Mediterranean. A 6 year old could figure out the consequences of Axis control of the Suez and Gibraltar.

So... what I'm saying here is that the event would surely add to the game, historical outcome or not.

What happened historically is only partially relevant as HoI is in many ways about taking ahistorical paths to victory.

Ofcourse the option should be presented, but there was a reason why it didn't happened in the war.
The option should properly represent the pros and cons.

 

[FNK_Drake]

Ofcourse the option should be presented, but there was a reason why it didn't happened in the war.
The option should properly represent the pros and cons.

Yeah. Anyone who has ever allied Nationalist Spain as Germany(or Italy) in HOI2 knows its a pain to defend all the extra coastlines.

A more viable solution might be a massive paratroop operation, but that would be alot of IC spent to secure one base.. It really depends how well they defend it.

 

[unmerged(122939)]

Canaris is the one who told Franco to stay out of the war and not allying with the Axis, but he had in 1940 all the intention to join them, so it was a real posibility. And although it wouldn't affect the movement of merchants, I think that would mean an important problem to any movement of RN warships, so it's have its credits to take Gilbraltar, and also with Spain joining the war you could base your subs and FW-200 in the Canarias, giving you another point to hit british merchants.

 

[PIT_AMERO]

Canaris is the one who told Franco to stay out of the war and not allying with the Axis, but he had in 1940 all the intention to join them, so it was a real posibility. And although it wouldn't affect the movement of merchants, I think that would mean an important problem to any movement of RN warships, so it's have its credits to take Gilbraltar, and also with Spain joining the war you could base your subs and FW-200 in the Canarias, giving you another point to hit british merchants.

I think that there were plans RN to occupy the islands almost immediately.

 

[unmerged(122939)]

I think that there were plans RN to occupy the islands almost immediately.

Could be, but still is a interesting choice. And although they do it, still Gilbraltar itself would let you put some subs and planes in a better position to raid some convoys, it is a posibility that should be taken in count, I think .

 

[PIT_AMERO]

Could be, but still is a interesting choice. And although they do it, still Gilbraltar itself would let you put some subs and planes in a better position to raid some convoys, it is a posibility that should be taken in count, I think .

Yes of course.
It will definitely make the game more interesting, even if nothing else.

 

[unmerged(112615)]

Historical possibilities like this should always be in the game. Same as with the Unholy Alliance. There were talks between Germany and the Soviet Union. That was in the game even if it had a very low chance of happening.

Since there were talks of Nationalist Spain joining the axis or allowing them military access I don't see why this shouldn't be in the game.

Around August 1940 there should be an event with the following choices:

1. Spain joins Axis
2. Spain gives Germany millitary access
3. Give up on Spain becoming ally (aka historical outcome)

 

[Markusw7]

Historical possibilities like this should always be in the game. Same as with the Unholy Alliance. There were talks between Germany and the Soviet Union. That was in the game even if it had a very low chance of happening.

Since there were talks of Nationalist Spain joining the axis or allowing them military access I don't see why this shouldn't be in the game.

Around August 1940 there should be an event with the following choices:

1. Spain joins Axis
2. Spain gives Germany millitary access
3. Give up on Spain becoming ally (aka historical outcome)

it should not be an event, the AI should try to do these things the game needs less events not more.

 

[unmerged(110051)]

Historically Spain was devastated and pending of foreign oil. There were several conditions that Franco put to join the Axis, one was a lot of oil, and second the French possessions in northern africa, at least Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and even dakar, Franco joining the Axis or granting military access should mean a review of the tripartite pact with Italy, the redistribution of Vichy France possessions and should cost a helluva oil