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tobias.mb

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I propose that bringing max art. to a siege offset the fort penalty, and not be fixed at +5.
My reasoning is like this:
In the beginning you start at 0 art siege bonus against 2 fort levels - a -2 siege roll penalty
Then art appears and you are suddenly at +3 siege roll bonus. Forts are a joke at this point.
Over time forts become relevant again, but only at tech 19 forts give a penalty to siege roll again.

This is not a proper "arms race" between defender and offender.
Between an offender and a defender, who both can afford max art during siege and up-to-date forts respectively the siege roll penalty/bonus should stay the same.

Edit: Before anyone accuses me of stealthily wanting to get rid of the long late-game sieges; Yes, that is what gave me the idea, that the siege roll system could use a rework. But I also honestly think, that sieges are too easy mid-game.
 
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Fluffy_Fishy

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They need balancing, most importantly to properly work for the AI, it also would be nice to see a sort of action reaction where technology is accounted for so that forts have a good defensive bonus that lasts about 15 years before agressive technology catches up.
 

tobias.mb

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Fair enough. Basing the max art. bonus on tech also makes sense. Something like at a -1 siege roll penalty for a brand new fort and later changing it to a +1 bonus once you are close to getting a new fort type is feasible. This could also replace the "outdated fort" bonus you get for sieging low lvl forts.
Tech would define your max. art. bonus and each fort type has a max. art. amount associated with it.
So to get max. art. bonus against a lvl 2 fort you would always need 10 art. But if you are already at tech 19 and your max. art. bonus is 4, then bringing 10 art. to siege a lvl 2 fort would give you a +2 siege roll bonus.
 
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tobias.mb

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A minor, but related, change I would also appreciate is siege progress beeing lost, when not enough regiments remain. It's just silly, that you can use 1 regiment to preserve siege progress against a lvl 8 fort.
 

PeterCorless

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Historically, at the early game sieges should be "advantage defender" until the advent of gunpowder artillery (at which point the triple walls of Constantinople should be surmountable).

Then, in the 1530s-1540s, when you start seeing star fortresses make their appearance in Italy (thank you Michelangelo!), advantage should swing back to the defense.

Yet by the late 1700s-1800s, sieges should be rare. Napoleon did have a few under his belt. But the world should be revolving around maneuver battles, not set-piece sieges.

What I suggest is that late in the game fortresses should lose their ZOC. Yes, you'd still need to leave a force behind to invest them, but you should not have to fight trench warfare.
 
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tobias.mb

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According to wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon "The first cannons in Europe were probably used in Iberia in the 11th and 12th centuries"
So I don't really see any reason to make early game sieges excessively difficult. Also it already is kind of more difficult to siege early game simply because you don't have art. at all.

Anyways I never said, no side should have an advantage. It is perfectly fine, if at some times one side has a minor advantage.
Only at the moment the jump from tech 6 -> tech 7 is simply ridiculous as it effectively changes the siege roll modifier from -2 (from fort) to +3 (fort - art. bonus)
And after that sieges only become harder with each new fort type.
 

PeterCorless

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Before the EUIV period, early European cannon weren't very effective, very large, or very numerous. It's not until you have the heavier bronze "bombards" of the 15th century that you start seeing walls come down from cannonade. By fall of Constantinople 1453, and on into the English Civil War, and even into the Napoleonic era, old-style tall stone castles were a liability due to how they would collapse under effective cannon fire. This is why the star fort became such a massive hit in Italy during the early 1500s.

Earthen glacis star forts, surrounded by moats, would remain the main defensive structures of the Rennaisance-to-Reformation-to-Enlightenment era. They would defend Amsterdam, Sienna, Lille, or Osijek in Europe as much as they would defend Quebec or West Point in the Americas. What would change about them, pretty much, was the complexity and sheer scale to which they would be built. The addition of ravelins, hornworks, tenaille, and all manner of organic topological incorporation into such fortification designs was what differentiated an earlier fort from more advanced versions. The problem they created, though, was that they would entirely dominate a city's landscape, and dictate the degree and extent to which a town could expand.

Earthen star-forts would remain paramount throughout the EU IV era until the invention of the timed-fuse explosive shells of the 19th century, and the replacement of earthen star forts by brick-and-mortar multi-tier casement fortifications of the 1820s-1830s, just after the EUIV period. Such fort designs then lasted until the advent of high explosives in the 1860s. These "Vicky 2" / American Civil War casement forts would be replaced by concrete in the 1880s.

However, rather than create such fortifications around entire cities, the industrial era urban growth meant that it was now utterly impractical to wall a city in, as you would with a star fort and bastion system. Instead, you'd put a fortification at a key approach to a city, such as at the harbor, or on a hill. Thus, not long after the end of the EUIV period, many cities got rid of their magnificent star forts as useless impediments to civil development.

To me, the main takeaway is that there should be a sort of "arc" of siege storytelling in EUIV. at first, castles should be mighty until you get your hands on your first cannon. Then cannon should be mighty, until you get your Level 1's (presumably old stone castles) updated to the early trace Italienne (level 2+). Then those should be awesome until you get your first mortars, and so on. There should be a sense of see-saws back and forth.

Yet as I said in a prior post, fortifications should be reduced in value by the late game even as their defenses got more elaborate. This trend should occur starting in the mid-1700s. Approximately the time of Frederick the Great. First of all, fixed fortifications were damned expensive. Second of all, larger field armies could do things at a range that a fort sitting around your own backyard could not do. There was a trend towards temporary fortifications. Field fortifications. Mobile warfare and defense in depth.

"Frederick the Great, the best-known eighteenth-century military mind and practitioner, continued this anti-fortification mode of thinking. Although he continued the heritage of besieging some enemy cities while protecting his own, the Prussian king sent his armies on fast-moving campaigns, bypassing fortified frontiers where appropriate. Frederick's victories represented a synthesis of fortification and mobility, as opposed to a simple focus on the former (Duffy 1985: 145-147), and their fame influenced other leaders to deemphasize fortress mania." — Bryan Alexander, "Gothic in Cyberspace," The Gothic World, Glennis Byron, Dale Townshend eds., pg. 146

By the time of the Napeoleonic wars, a lot of these fortresses should simply be deprecated by the advent of wars of maneuver. Fortifications, at some point, should lose their capacity to create a "zone of control." Napoleon would leave a besieging force to make sure his lines of logistics were kept open, but otherwise kept moving. There were key sieges of note, such as the siege of Almeida (1810), but in general, "Napoleon impressed his generals not to attack, but to bypass fortified positions in order to spare their men." — Napoleon On War, Bruno Colson, ed. p. 276.

I can understand the intent of the ZOC system, and to allow some provinces to fall quickly while others remain hard nuts to crack. However, by the end-game, even though there might be the equivalent of a "fortification per province" there should still be wars of maneuver. Napoleon did not stop his campaign into Austria as soon as he crossed the border and ran into his first fort. Otherwise, he'd have never reached Austerlitz in three months.
 
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tobias.mb

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To me, the main takeaway is that there should be a sort of "arc" of siege storytelling in EUIV. at first, castles should be mighty until you get your hands on your first cannon. Then cannon should be mighty, until you get your Level 1's (presumably old stone castles) updated to the early trace Italienne (level 2+). Then those should be awesome until you get your first mortars, and so on. There should be a sense of see-saws back and forth.
This sounds like you agree with my suggestion to get "max art. bonus" stat from mil tech, no? :confused:
 

Danfish77

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What I suggest is that late in the game fortresses should lose their ZOC. Yes, you'd still need to leave a force behind to invest them, but you should not have to fight trench warfare.
Perhaps having a certain level of tech allows a nation's troops to bypass ZOC, while still preventing less-advanced nation's troops your own forts' ZOC?
 
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PeterCorless

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Definitely there could be Tech Level diffs to determine whether a fortress would be seen as a "show stopper," yet late in the game, little would be considered a "show stopper." Sure, you would have hard nuts, like Ehrenbreitstein (which was eventually blown up by French troops in 1801 to prevent it being handed back to its native Germanic defenders), yet generally even the best of fortifications would be bypassed and a sieging force would be left behind to make sure that the hard point did not play havoc on your army's rear area.

It was a doctrinal change adopted by most western nations throughout the latter part of the 18th Century. Throughout history, there has been a continuum of shift between wars of maneuver and wars of attrition/position. During the ascendancy of fortifications, wars of attrition/position are de rigeur. Yet during the ascendancy of artillery and field armies, wars of maneuver are the standard mode.

This is the dynamic that the game should be shooting for. The new fort system sort of helps simulate such a dynamic. It is my contention that there can be even more attention paid to this evolution throughout the EUIV time frame.