Change the name of Quantity Idea "The Young Can Serve"

[Guardian54]

EDIT: I remembered new information about why militarizing women is valid in EU4's timeframe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_March_on_Versailles
Women did basically start the French Revolution.

...Relocated from a later post updating the thread, I concluded this painting is not really BS (though the "uh, please fix the dress, madame..." is hilarious):

The only way letting the young be conscripted would increase manpower significantly would be if all the older men were already drafted.

This means even less young males "screwing around" (ahem) and thus an even smaller next generation.

So letting the young serve should actually reduce your available manpower (i.e. potential draftees) over the long term, and at most provide a one-time MP boost.

Consider the following:

You have 100K males in your country at any one age from 10 to 20 right now, with 50K men each for ages 21 to 40. This is a total of 1,500,000 men potentially draftable, if the draft age range is 16-40 (or rather, up to max 41, if you want to split hairs over the math)
The next year, 100,000 men turn 16, and are added to the MP pool, with 50K lost. That's a gain of 50K.

This means if you move the draft age from 16 down to 12, you instantly get 400K more potential draftees. Alright...
The year after the change, 100,000 boys turn 12 and are added to MP pool, with 50K lost.

This means MP recovery should be exactly the same rate as before the change.

In fact in the long run, letting the young serve should slow down your nation's population growth due to losing more and more young men due to barracks diseases during militia/preparatory training, and social values often not allowing women to be the breadwinners for families anywhere nearly as effectively. This means fewer families, even if those girls ended up widows at age 16 after the recently married young man was called to war, there would still be fewer children born, at least in the lower classes, if they'd been unable to find matches at all by having the boys be called at 12.

If someone thinks the dying men is only a dent on one side of demographics and don't affect the future, if 10K of the men looking to marry women born between 1428 and 1432 died, how many families will not start due to those "leftover" women being spurned for being "too old", particularly in Europe with its monogamy? How many babies will not be born? USE YOUR BRAIN, IF YOU HAVE ONE.

So I suggest the idea "The Young May Serve" be renamed to something that actually makes mathematical sense.

Since in the war-torn times of EU4, there were far more women than men despite the life-threatening feats of childbirth they undergo, and since for the most part men had to be able to work to sustain families, this meant many sturdy young women would be available. The idea that "A country can lose half its men every generation and still prosper, but losing most of its women would doom it" is not much of an issue in this case.

Every culture has its stories of female warrior heroes (i.e. I got reminded while playing AoE 2 HD Joan of Arc campaign that EU4 included the Hundred Years' War and noticed the math didn't work out). Even Ming China with its bound feet still told the tales and revered the heroism of Mulan. Japan, equally repressive as a fellow Asian nation, had the Onna Bushi (Female Warriors) as a last-line defence force.

Therefore, I suggest the idea be renamed "La Pucelle" for Western, Eastern, and Ottoman (they heard of Joan of Arc, surely) tech groups, "Mulan's Legacy" for Chinese and Nomad (Mulan fought the nomads of her time...), and "Hearth Guardians" for everyone else. I do realize how offensive kitchen jokes are, but, well, we already have a native national idea called "Hearth Mothers" so I don't think it's too rude...

Anything similar could work, but the current name and description just doesn't make the amount of sense that drafting unmarried females of certain age groups (i.e. beyond what was considered "marriageable") does in terms of increasing available draftees.

I do not care so much that drafting women would be a desperate last resort (cough Onna Bushi cough) so much as it makes mathematical sense in terms of increasing manpower recovery (desperation = recovery) compared to drafting younger males.

 

[neondt]

You're overthinking this

 

[EmperorBatman999]

Females would never be recruited by any army in mass numbers at this time though, or any time really. There were certainly cases of female soldiers during this time, like during the 30 Years War, 7 Years War, or Napoleonic Wars, but these were isolated cases of women dressing as men for personal reasons like avoiding forced marriage or for national pride. And quantity ideas don't suggest that the country is necessarily in a state of danger, so it would never come down to drafting women.

So it is hard to change the name to anything better. I would suggest "La Patrie en Danger!" but that the previous idea "Levee en Masse" is already a reference to the same thing. Maybe an allusion to national fervor in some other way? Maybe "National Guard" or "Conscripted Reserves" might work too?

 

[salmanbabri]

You're overthinking this

This sums up the thread well IMHO.

 

[Searry]

I think you might have devoted too much time for this.

 

[bex I]

your are not right. as long as only males die the demographic development isnt touched significantly, and it doesnt matter if the dieing men are old or young. its more like a dent in the pyramid on the male side.

 

[bbqftw]

I think this idea name is highly offensive for the papal states

 

[EMT0]

I think this idea name is highly offensive for the papal states

And there we go. Oh my sides.

 

[Incompetent]

Manpower in EU4 is always going to be a highly abstract concept, because the game doesn't have POPs. (Contrast with Victoria 2, where you can actually see how much of your population is being turned into cannon fodder by the military-industrial complex.)

As for the names and description for the Quantity ideas, I think they are meant to be satirical.

 

[Alliegorical]

I was expecting some social-justice-warrior rant about why it's politically incorrect for the game to allow the player to conscript children. I was pleasantly surprised. OP's logic is undeniable.

I love when people use math to prove something is stupid.

Perhaps instead of increasing manpower, the idea should add an option to the military menu to draft children, which would instantly grant three years of manpower and reduce manpower regeneration by 50% for ten years.

 

[Will Steel]

I think a better way would've been to implement a real population system, but then that stuff would be best depicted by the long-awaited Victoria 3.

 

[smellymummy]

Might as well rename it to lessons from rabbits, our people are numerous so our recruiters never have problems finding raw recruits.

 

[tobias.mb]

I do realize how offensive kitchen jokes are

Have you read the description of the ming temple faction? I don't think you need to worry about something beeing offensive.

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Females would never be recruited by any army in mass numbers at this time though, or any time really. There were certainly cases of female soldiers during this time, like during the 30 Years War, 7 Years War, or Napoleonic Wars, but these were isolated cases of women dressing as men for personal reasons like avoiding forced marriage or for national pride. And quantity ideas don't suggest that the country is necessarily in a state of danger, so it would never come down to drafting women.

So it is hard to change the name to anything better. I would suggest "La Patrie en Danger!" but that the previous idea "Levee en Masse" is already a reference to the same thing. Maybe an allusion to national fervor in some other way? Maybe "National Guard" or "Conscripted Reserves" might work too?

Was there not a female unit in Revolutionary France? Or did Assassin's Creed Unity lie to me (again)?


To be honest: I didn't read the post. Too long. But here's my thoughts... wasn't it customary for youngsters to serve in this time period? Not something you'd need an "Idea" to have in a country, just the default way of doing things.

I propose changing it to "Wheelchair Artillery," in honor of Hearts of Iron IV.

 

[208]

I propose changing it to "Wheelchair Artillery," in honor of Hearts of Iron IV.

There's already a different Quantity idea for that, it's called "The Old And Infirm".

 

[Guardian54]

your are not right. as long as only males die the demographic development isnt touched significantly, and it doesnt matter if the dieing men are old or young. its more like a dent in the pyramid on the male side.

Really? Then why is there a concept called a Christmas Cake (i.e. too old to marry) for women? IT's becuase there weren't enough men for them to marry and start families. Women in those days could not afford to start families themselves and would have been socially REKT if they tried single motherhood without being a widow (and often got REKT even as widows due to lack of social security systems).

If you lost 10,000 out of the 100,000 men in your country who might have married women in a particular 5-year birth date i.e. age range (14-19 year old women, for example), that means 10,000 women go unmarried and then get spurned for being "too old". This is especially true in Europe with its monogamy, since polygamy can absorb the damage somewhat.

So how many babies is that going to be that will not be born? How much future manpower does it cost you?

Have you read the description of the ming temple faction? I don't think you need to worry about something beeing offensive.

I don't give a wooden nickle about the Temples because they are completely fictional. A "Generals" faction would be more realistic to history and less WuXia (i.e. martial arts heroism) novel style.

To be honest: I didn't read the post. Too long. But here's my thoughts... wasn't it customary for youngsters to serve in this time period? Not something you'd need an "Idea" to have in a country, just the default way of doing things.

If you can't be bothered to read, please don't talk in case you're completely off the mark, you have two eyes and one mouth, read twice as much as you talk please.
...Then again you have ten fingers, so type 10x the number of characters you read

You are correct, Clauswitz (not the game engine, the guy) was a twelve-year-old lance corporal at one point.

 

[SignedName]

Females would never be recruited by any army in mass numbers at this time though, or any time really. There were certainly cases of female soldiers during this time, like during the 30 Years War, 7 Years War, or Napoleonic Wars, but these were isolated cases of women dressing as men for personal reasons like avoiding forced marriage or for national pride. And quantity ideas don't suggest that the country is necessarily in a state of danger, so it would never come down to drafting women.

So it is hard to change the name to anything better. I would suggest "La Patrie en Danger!" but that the previous idea "Levee en Masse" is already a reference to the same thing. Maybe an allusion to national fervor in some other way? Maybe "National Guard" or "Conscripted Reserves" might work too?

The Dahomey Amazons made up a third of Dahomey's army and were considered an elite unit. This is represented in-game by the national idea "the Amazons" which gives Dahomey +5% Discipline.

 

[sirmentlegen]

In my country i expect anyone who can hold a gun to be on the frontline.

 

[ssuperflash1]

In my country i expect anyone who can hold a gun to be on the frontline.

And then you have half your army desert before the first battle, and then you get ROFLSTOMPED by everyone around you as your "children's battalions" get attacked by mercenaries.

 

[fleetothemoon]

All the descriptions for ideas are really nothing more than flavor text, so it is understandable that people would think the OP is looking too deeply into it.

However, I think this also hints at another issue with manpower. If you started drafting more men than normal into your army, then shouldn't there be some averse side effects on your economy?

Conversely, if you only have 10% of your total manpower, then shouldn't you be facing some severe economic penalties? After all, 90% of the eligible men that could be drafted were pretty much killed off. I know that there are some disaster events that triggers with low manpower (along with other conditions) but this isn't really evident.

HoI4 seemed to address this issue by tying in larger manpower recruitment with more severe economic penalties.