Change in Culture Change

[unmerged(26764)]

I've been observing culture change since 1.06. I was observing random counties changing to their liege's culture when they didn't border another county of that culture, and were of the same religion. But it wasn't happening a lot.

Here is what I realized. Counties are changing, no matter what they border, if they're in the same de jure realm. And I don't think they change if they're of the wrong religion any more.

This is an example of what I mean. Wales conquers Ireland. Ireland is the same religion and won't change culture unless it borders Wales, which it doesn't. After 100 years, Ireland becomes de jure Wales. Then, Irish provinces will become Welsh, even thought they don't border Wales at all.

This is a great solution, and it also solves the island problem.

So questions:

1. Does this work for Empires or only Kingdoms?
2. Do wrong religion counties flip any more?
3. Did everybody know about this? It's new to me.

 

[Cwth]

Did my reply in the other thread make any sense? I know I'm not always the best at explaining things But really curious whether what I described is consistent with what you've observed And would be interested to know if anyone has a better interpretation of the event script.

Here's an example to illustrate how I'm interpreting the re-written event:

As Duke of Munster I press a personal claim on the county of Cournaille in Britanny. When I win that sets Cournaille's "conquest culture" to Irish. (You can't see that info in the UI but if you open up the save game in a text editor it's in there.) As long as I keep Cournaille for myself and keep my capital in Munster Cournaille will remain Breton. I won't get culture change events because for that to happen either it would have to be my capital or there would have to be neighbouring Irish counties. Later I give the county to someone in my court who's also Irish. Since Cournaille is now the capital of someone who has Cournaille's conquest culture there's now a chance that the event will fire that brings in Irish settlers.

Now say, instead, that I'd won the whole Duchy of Britanny in that war. Giving away single counties in Britanny to Irishmen wouldn't be enough, because the war would have set the conquest culture of the duchy not of the individual counties. The only county that would be eligible for the settlers event in that case would be the capital of the Duke of Britanny provided, of course, that the Duke of Britanny's capital was in Britanny.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I wish a developer would explain some of these changes because I honestly have no idea how to interpret some of these event triggers and effects.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

That's interesting. Where does the nested prevprevprev stuff fit into all that?

Also, here's what I'm observing. I'm only seeing culture changes when the kingdom shifts de jure into my Kingdom. I was running a Wales game. When I took Cornwall, a county shifted to Welsh pretty quickly. Nothing else switched in all of Britain that wasn't neighboring a welsh county. But when the first Irish duchies became de jure Welsh, very quickly one of them swapped to Welsh.

I've also see a few other counties in other nations do it. A northern italian county in the HRE became German, surrounded by other Italian counties. Some French counties in Occitan and Norman country became Frankish. And a greek county in the ERE became Vlach for some reason.

I'm thinking the top de jure liege has to share the conquest culture. In my case, Ireland didn't exist so it couldn't be Welsh. When the de jure liege became Wales, my king was Welsh so it swapped culture. I'm thinking this is part of the PREVPREVPREV conditions.

 

[Rakonas]

I've been trying to figure out why I rule half the world and despite almost all of it having been wrong-religion at some point and being ruled by my culture rulers, a grand total of 3 provinces have actually culture flipped. So I believe I've pretty much nailed it down.

# Bring in some settlers
province_event = {
	id = 55001
	desc = "EVTDESC55001"
	picture = GFX_evt_carriage
	
	only_rulers = yes
	
	trigger = {
		owner = {
			top_liege = {
				culture = PREV
			}
			NOT = { culture = ROOT }
			capital_scope = {
				province_id = ROOT
			}
			
			OR = {
				primary_title = {
					conquest_culture = PREV
				}
				ROOT = {
					county = {
						conquest_culture = PREVPREV
					}
				}
				ROOT = {
					duchy = {
						holder_scope = {
							character = PREVPREVPREV
						}
						conquest_culture = PREVPREV
					}
				}
				ROOT = {
					kingdom = {
						holder_scope = {
							character = PREVPREVPREV
						}
						conquest_culture = PREVPREV
					}
				}
				ROOT = {
					empire = {
						holder_scope = {
							character = PREVPREVPREV
						}
						conquest_culture = PREVPREV
					}
				}
			}
		}
		
		NOT = { # Exclude provinces covered by event 55000
			any_neighbor_province = {
				ROOT = {
					owner = {
						culture = PREVPREV
					}
				}
				owner = {
					ROOT = {
						owner = {
							culture = PREVPREV
						}
					}
				}
			}
		}
	}

The key aspect is the 'conquest_culture' tag. It would seem that every single title has its own culture tag. I've only seen it work out with kingdom-level titles, but I believe that it works with empire-level titles. This would mean that changing de jure borders would result in changing culture.. However it's very unclear as to what culture each title is.
Personally, I can understand if the Byzantine Empire is Greek culture, and the Persian Empire is Persian culture, and the HRE is German culture (which explains why Italy was removed from its de jure borders).
The Arabian Empire is, however, completely ambiguous. Arabian is a culture group. As an Egyptian of the Arabian Empire, I've expanded its de jure borders quite successfully, however I just delved through the files to find that e_arabia is bedouin arabic culture so it's secretly useless in terms of culture shifting. I ask that the devs address this in the next patch as it completely screws over the non-bedouin arabic player or rather gives a massive advantage to bedouin arabs. I suggest that either the empire isn't allowed to be formed by all arabs or it's considered part of the arabic culture group as I assume that titles can't have multiple culture tags.
Looking through the files (landed_titles.txt) I see a few cases where this feature is hindered by the lack of support for multiple culture tags. The empire of scandinavia is swedish culture, which means that if Danes form it they won't see culture spread in the same way they will if Swedes form it. The kingdom of england entirely lacks a culture tag presumably to not favour the English over the Saxons or vice versa, but in practice would just screw over both of them instead of just one by making it impossible for English/Saxon culture to spread.
Simply by making either multiple culture tags possible for a title or having the culture tag of a title able to change in mid-game would address all of these issues. Ideally both of those solutions would be implemented, as I see that the Empire of Britannia is without culture tag, and presumably if it had all of the british cultures tagged then culture would spread absurdly easily from the start. Perhaps Empires having no culture tag by default and simply being made in the culture of whoever formed them would be best, as it would allow for Andalusian Spain, Welsh Britannia, Norwegian Scandinavia, etc. At the moment cultures who are able to form empire titles yet aren't actually able to culturally utilize those titles are really screwed over.
notreallyanedit: Looking at the other thread cwth linked I'm going to assume that the titles changing culture due to war thing is really badly implemented, as multiple cases of Jihads, invasions, etc. would have presumably changed the culture of the kingdoms I took and subsequently gave to vassals, yet there's no apparent effect.
I do like the idea of de jure realm influencing culture, as it gives reason to destroy titles among other things, but it really needs to be either fixed or the old culture change event added back in as it's not working right in general.

 

[Cwth]

Thought I'd post the other piece of the puzzle script-wise. If you look in cb_types.txt you'll see a lot of them have blocks of code like this:

on_success_title = {
	usurp_title_plus_barony_if_unlanded = ROOT
	if = {
		limit = {
			higher_tier_than = BARON
			NOT = { culture = ROOT }
		}
		hidden_tooltip = { conquest_culture = ROOT }
	}
}

That's how conquest cultures get set at the end of a war.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

So conquest_culture isn't based on the culture of the top title holder, but of the tag itself? That's really confused.

So what happens if you're playing in France and your king is Occitan? No culture flips ever? What if you educate your child to be something random, like Hungarian? Then absolutely nothing? Or will all of France start to flip to Hungarian?

I'm not a fan of this being determined by the title. It also seems to making forming an Empire a bad idea most of the time, because it will stop culture flipping -- unless you happen to be the culture the devs assigned to that title.

This change is really confusing and really stealth. There was nothing said about it anywhere. And I'm still not sure we're reading the event files right because there's a lot of strange new mechanics, like the PREVPREVPREVPREV stuff.

 

[Pjstaab]

I've kind of understand what is going on here but can someone explain it to me like i'm little? Started as an Irish count and worked my way up to owning Ireland and England and i'm trying to convert to english to get longbow ranges. I've managed to get the English event to fire and my court is mostly made up of saxons or normans.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

I've kind of understand what is going on here but can someone explain it to me like i'm little? Started as an Irish count and worked my way up to owning Ireland and England and i'm trying to convert to english to get longbow ranges. I've managed to get the English event to fire and my court is mostly made up of saxons or normans.

We're trying to figure out how counties change culture. That event just changed and nobody really understands how it works now. And the event uses all sorts of weird new triggers so we can't even figure it out by reading the event.

It seems you want to change your character's culture. For that, just assign your heir a tutor of the culture you want to change to -- English it seems. Pick someone gregarious and diligent if you can for faster results.

Can anyone else confim what's going on in their games for county conversion so we can figure out what changed and how it works now? The wikis and everyone's old advice is all wrong now. Are you seeing random conversions without a border? If so, what country are you playing and where did it happen? Did it happen with an Empire or a kingdom? And which one?

 

[Pjstaab]

We're trying to figure out how counties change culture. That event just changed and nobody really understands how it works now. And the event uses all sorts of weird new triggers so we can't even figure it out by reading the event.

It seems you want to change your character's culture. For that, just assign your heir a tutor of the culture you want to change to -- English it seems. Pick someone gregarious and diligent if you can for faster results.

Can anyone else confim what's going on in their games for county conversion so we can figure out what changed and how it works now? The wikis and everyone's old advice is all wrong now.

Grr I derped, I forgot that province buildings were tied to ruler and not province culture. Still, i've been a fan of culture converting just for another thing to do. Tried doing a super narrowminded culture conversion TO game in EU3.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

Tried doing a super narrowminded culture conversion TO game in EU3.

Ha! I did that too! As i remember it, I turned everything from Paris to Moscow Prussian. Then I posted something about it on these boards and someone got mad at me because of the historical analogy. Good times.

 

[liamgamer55]

This seems silly, perhaps it should be based on the culture of the capital of the kingdom (if the capital is owned by the owner of the kingdom).

 

[unmerged(26764)]

Okay, I'm really having troubling reading this event because I just don't know what PREVPREV and PREVPREVPREV are referring to. The event is moving backwards in some array, but I have no idea what. And I think this may be bugged.

Because reading this, I think what's supposed to be happening is the settler event fires a) if the primary title culture matches the conquest culture, OR b) the conquest culture of the county / duchy / or kingdom matches something else. But I don't know what the something else is. So only he primary culture of the title seems to matter.

 

[semaphore]

Because reading this, I think what's supposed to be happening is the settler event fires a) if the primary title culture matches the conquest culture, OR b) the conquest culture of the county / duchy / or kingdom matches something else.

Seems like the owner's culture.

But I don't know what the something else is. So only he primary culture of the title seems to matter.

That makes no sense. If you don't know what it is, you can't assume it doesn't matter. And what primary culture?

 

[unmerged(26764)]

That makes no sense. If you don't know what it is, you can't assume it doesn't matter. And what primary culture?

Actually, I can and do.

As I said, I suspect this second trigger is broken and isn't working. So whatever it's supposed to do it isn't doing. So practically, only the title culture matters. Because the second thing, whatever it's supposed to do, isn't happening.

I say this because my play experience seems to confirm that only the title culture is controlling when this event fires.

 

[liamgamer55]

Okay, I'm really having troubling reading this event because I just don't know what PREVPREV and PREVPREVPREV are referring to. The event is moving backwards in some array, but I have no idea what. And I think this may be bugged.

Because reading this, I think what's supposed to be happening is the settler event fires a) if the primary title culture matches the conquest culture, OR b) the conquest culture of the county / duchy / or kingdom matches something else. But I don't know what the something else is. So only he primary culture of the title seems to matter.

PREV means previous scope.

So if the previous thing it mentioned was the title holder then that'll be the title holder.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

PREV means previous scope.

So if the previous thing it mentioned was the title holder then that'll be the title holder.

I don't code, although I've dabbled some in scripting. So I understood PREV as previous, but I don't see what variable it's looking for with PREVPREV and PREVPREVPREV the way this is written.

In this event:
ROOT = culture is the target's culture.
PREV = is the culture it's going to change to.
PREVPREV = ?
PREVPREVPREV = ?

In the OR command here, it's asking:

1. If the primary culture = conquest culture the statement is valid. (This I understand)
2. If the holder of the duchy / kingdom / empire is WHO and the conquest culture is WHAT? (This I don't).

For number 2, I don't understand what it's relating back to.

 

[liamgamer55]

Post the code for the event

 

[unmerged(26764)]

Post the code for the event

It's already posted above. See Post #5.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

This is what I think this means now.

The settler event will fire if:

1. The owner's top liege is of the target culture.
2. The owner is not of the county's current culture.
3. The county is not the owner's capital.

AND

One of the following:

4. The owner's primary title is coded as the target culture.
5. The county is de jure of an entity with the target culture.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN

This is a really screwy way to do things because of the way titles are coded to always have a certain culture. If in your game northumberland has been scottish forever it doesn't matter. The title is forever English. And the way empires randomly pick one of the many possibilities is really unfair to anyone forming the empire with a different culture than set by the code -- Danish Scandinavia, Catalan Hispania, Occitan Francia and so on.

Nonetheless, these seem to be the rules:

A. Make sure the county you want to spread to isn't held by a one county count. That would make it a capital and the settlement event will then never happen.

B. You theoretically should be able to immediately grant a county to a person whose title is coded to have a certain culture and get settlement. So if the king of Scotland holds a wrong culture county directly, he should be able to get settlement. But since most non-king titles don't have culture associated with them, and once you start playing this gets changed quickly, this is rarely going to work. And I've never seen it actually happen.

C. You can wait for it to de jure drift into a king or empire title associated with the correct culture. So forming empires is usually bad because it stops kingdom drift and most of the empires will be set as the wrong culture for you, if one at all. (Britania has no culture, so it will never get settlement events. Sorry!).

Therefore, if you were the king of scotland and getting settlement events and then you formed Britainia, you would never get the settlement event again. Tough. Same if you were Denmark and formed Scandinavia, or so on. Yet if you were Sweden and formed Scandinavia, you'd still keep getting them.

What would fix this is if the game dynamically changed the culture associated with each title somehow. Empires should take on the culture of the person that formed it. Duchies should take on the title of their top de jure liege's set culture. But as it stands, this is really a terrible implementation.