Change Anglican to Lollardy

[Ttrgw]

My suggestion is to rename Anglican to Lollardy so that it can convert by The Lollard Heresy event. The reason for making this suggestion lies in the current Anglican status.

Anglican is the weakest religion in Christianity. It is said to be weakest because it is significantly inferior to other Christian denominations, but I think it is also due to the slow its spawning and the incompatibility with Britain.

Anglican's main offerings are stability, money, mercantilism, dev cost reduction and innovativeness gain modifier.
None of these are needed by Britain since the 16th century when Anglican is available.

With access to the New World and Africa, Britain already knows how to gain infinite wealth. If you want stability, staying Catholic is a good option. You can get some dev cost reduction as Protestant nation, and you can get more with HRE, which is difficult to join as Anglican nation. Innovativeness doesn't really matter.

In this way, Anglican is a religion with a very low existence value. But if it's available in the early game, the rating will change. This is because Catholic England in the early game does not have infinite money and stability. Dev cost reduction greatly help to embrace the Renaissance. Innovativeness gain modifier is effective in increasing technology and taking ideas.

Weakness after the 16th century is no different from that of Anglican. Therefore, it should be possible to convert to Protestant.

The problem with this suggestion is that Anglican and Lollardy have been equated. Probably Anglican and Lollardy aren't close enough to represent the same ability.

 

[FrederickF]

I think they should keep it and buff it by making it so that when you use the divorce consort and marry new consort buttons, you can choose your heir among some random choices. Or allow Anglicanism to get a parliamentary decision to choose an heir. It happened quite a bit in English history; will provide some meaningful choice and some more reasons to pick those buttons in Anglicanism. Otherwise, the point of Anglicanism is to play to Britain's strengths; but I would like it if it can be formed by decision after the reformation starts so you can get the bonuses earlier and not wait for a MTTH event.

 

[Donlad]

I understand people's gripes with Anglican, but I'd rather have it get buffed in some way rather than changing the religion.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

Anglican is an actual religion and is meant to represent the direction that England went where they took elements from the Protestant movement and merged them with Catholic beliefs, also Henry VIII doing his thing, why would we ditch it and add in a small religion?

 

[Ttrgw]

I understand people's gripes with Anglican, but I'd rather have it get buffed in some way rather than changing the religion.

Of course, it's best if the buff makes the Anglican competitive with other Christian denominations. However, if that is not the case, I would like the religion to be useful at least in the early game.

Anglican is an actual religion and is meant to represent the direction that England went where they took elements from the Protestant movement and merged them with Catholic beliefs, also Henry VIII doing his thing, why would we ditch it and add in a small religion?

To be honest, I think Anglican itself is a small religion that doesn’t need to be separated from Protestant. I don't know what purpose the religion was added to the game.

 

[Donlad]

To be honest, I think Anglican itself is a small religion that doesn’t need to be separated from Protestant. I don't know what purpose the religion was added to the game.

Yeah, I remember that being brought up a lot when the religion was first added with Rule Britannia. Back before it was announced I couldn't imagine them possibly adding Anglican or Hussite. The Catholic/Protestant/Reformed division of western christianity has been in EU for a long time and it didn't seem probable that they were going to shake it up.

But they did, and I think for the better. I agree that the bonuses need a little work, but the addition of Anglican works well to flesh out England. In addition to this, Protestant was never a great fit for the English Reformation ingame. The Church of England retains Catholic traditions and titles, and never was fully in sync with the continental European Reformation. During the timeline of EU4 there would be great upheaval in England over how "protestant" society and church truly was.

Anglicanism being ingame may seem odd at first, but I think it has a good basis. Just need some slight improvement. Besides, both Anglican and Hussite makes me hopeful for far future additions, such as Anabaptist, Waldensian and Presbyterian. But that may just be wishful thinking.

 

[JKiller96]

Maybe make Lollardy a separate religion? If Hussite can come back I don't see why not. It exists in CK2. I understand this makes England have 2 potential unique religions though

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

Maybe make Lollardy a separate religion? If Hussite can come back I don't see why not. It exists in CK2. I understand this makes England have 2 potential unique religions though

I'd rather see this, not only would it be interesting to see a new religion in Europe, it also gives England a choice of which Protestant movement to follow

 

[moscal]

Maybe make Lollardy a separate religion? If Hussite can come back I don't see why not. It exists in CK2. I understand this makes England have 2 potential unique religions though

No! EU4 don't need extra new christian denominations.

 

[Blk82]

Anglicanism, at least historically, considered itself a high-church and moderate member of the Reformed branch of Christianity, mainly because it sided with the Reformed against the Lutherans on the question of the Eucharistic presence. Anglican bishops even attended the synod of Dordrecht. Some of its practices were more low church than the Lutherans, such as the removal of private confession, and forbidding the lighting candles in churches. However, since much of the religious in England was Anglican versus low-church Reformed (Presbyterian, Congregational, or Calvinistic Baptist), it does make sense to show Anglicanism as a different denomination.

That being said, the mechanics of Anglicanism are basically a cartoonish parody of the reign of Henry VIII, who was actually more an independent Catholic than "Anglican" by the standards of the 39 articles or the Anglican church as it existed after his death.

 

[JKiller96]

No! EU4 don't need extra new christian denominations.

Add more religions in general. Christianity has so many denominations in reality that EU4 would even have trouble keeping up with it.

 

[Blk82]

Add more religions in general. Christianity has so many denominations in reality that EU4 would even have trouble keeping up with it.

Anglican and Hussitism would cover most of Christianity. One could make an argument for other denominations, but none of them were a majority population in many provinces.

You probably could make an argument that Methodists were the majority/plurality in some provinces in the United States. However, the Methodists did not separate from Anglicanism in America until 1784, and even later in Great Britain. I could see having an event where if an Anglican colonial nation breaks free in the Age of Revolutions, it has an opportunity to convert to Methodism. In the USA, the Anglican church largely ceased to be function as the Anglican clergy were bound by their oaths to pray for the king, and more importantly, there were no Anglican bishops in the New World. But that would be a fairly niche situation, as it requires England to convert to Anglicanism, found a colonial nation, then that colonial nation obtain independence.

You could also make a case for anabaptists being the "majority" religion in some provinces for a brief period. However, Anabaptist rule in Munster only lasted for 15 months or so, and it never the majority religion in a province for any length of time. At best, it is the equivalent of a band of heretics rising up, rather than a religion in itself.

There is also an argument for including Nestorianism, since it appears in CKII. However, while Nestorianism survives to the present day, it was much reduced by the 1444 start date, and not a majority religion anywhere. Still, it might make sense as a nearly-dead religion like Judaism or Zoroastrianism. But, it's complete absence is also appropriate.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

There is also an argument for including Nestorianism, since it appears in CKII. However, while Nestorianism survives to the present day, it was much reduced by the 1444 start date, and not a majority religion anywhere. Still, it might make sense as a nearly-dead religion like Judaism or Zoroastrianism. But, it's complete absence is also appropriate.

I'd like to see Nestorianism survive in at least 1 province in 1444, just to give the player the option to restore it, like Zoroastrianism, but most games it should just be converted, more of an option for the player or those rare cases where somehow the AI makes it their religion and survives. The rest I agree, other Christian denominations aren't really needed anymore since with the inclusion of the Hussites, and if Nestorian was to be added one day, it's all the major branches added to the game, the only other one one I could see being added, now that Hussites are in the game, would be the Lollards as proposed here. Obviously, I don't think we should start adding every single split from the Catholic Church before the Reformation started, but it would give more flavour to England/Great Britain and make the Lollard event they have more interesting instead of just spawning a bunch of rebels at a horrible time for England or make them deal with a bunch of unrest for a long time.

 

[Blk82]

I don't think the Lollards were a majority in any province in England in the game's timeframe. Additionally, Lollardy was associated with more radical movements, unlike their Hussite descendants, who had moderated to a nearly Roman Catholic by position by the time George of Podebrady. (Or rather, the ruling Utraquist faction were nearly Catholic, other factions were more radical.) I really can't see England adopting Lollardy as its official religion. Lollardy was simply too radical and too egalitarian to plausibly be adopted as a state church.

 

[Panzerschreck]

What you could do for religiouns that are grouped together (Protestants, Anglicans, Reformed), to have each country that switches to that religion to have a "school" of that religion, like the Muslims have. So you could model other faiths within these groups.

 

[EasternTiger]

I'd like to see Nestorianism survive in at least 1 province in 1444,

The "Coptic" province in the island of Socotra near Yemen, is actually supposed to be a Nestorian province., as the Soqotri were Nestorians until the introduction of Islam.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

The "Coptic" province in the island of Socotra near Yemen, is actually supposed to be a Nestorian province., as the Soqotri were Nestorians until the introduction of Islam.

I still would rather see Nestorian itself added to the game, even just as one province

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

Just passing by to mention the Jacobite Rebellion, as always. And Judaism, also as always.

But I agree with the people that said there are not enough Christian denominations, even with the new Bohemian changes. Maybe making Orthodox rites and denominations more distinct? Greek Rite, Russian Rite and such.
And while technically the Church of England and the Church of Scotland could be separate, that would hardily make any difference.

depending on how Catholicism is reworked in Emperor, maybe adding a "tolerated heresies" to Christian variations, something similar to Patriarch Authority and Legalism-Mysticism mechanics added to tolerance and piety values (for theocracies at least). Even within the same faith there were Cagliostro, John Dee, Jacob Boehme, Savonarola, the Count of Saint Germain, Doctor Nostradamus and Doctor Paracelsus who were dissonant to dogma and sometimes were not hanged or burned. As far as I can say, the Orthodox churches also had their equivalents, but the only ones that come to mind are Rasputin and Nicholas Roerich who lived much later on the late XIX and early XX centuries.

So, Christian mysticism could be a thing. Vive Jehanne la Pucelle.