Chance of no-dejure-kingdoms

[Sforzesco]

The game now starts with map full of de jure kingdoms. As we have been told/have consesus of,
DJ-kingdoms represent something of idea of some area belonging into some realm even if
temporarily shattered, having a tradition of being united.
At Charlemagne start, there should be large areas with no de jure kingdoms as there has not been history of
having kingdoms in some remove areas. I suggest the following:

* Remove de jure kingdoms and empires when they do not belong. It should be possible to have "no de jure kingdom".
* Most new kingdoms could be "custom kingdoms" and start as titular.
* there should be no insta-drift upon creating custom kingdoms
* "no de jure" could maybe drift faster (like in 50 years) into de jure.
* tribal ambition "become king of X" or Subjugation of X could apply to AREA X instead
of de jure kingdom of X now that areas will be introduced into the game.
* custom kingdoms should be creatable but not customizable without the DLC.

Results:
* Kingdoms would not be unrealistically preset (form of railroading)
* Kingdoms would be weaker at start (not de jure king, just subjugator)
* Forming of kingdoms would be more natural or dynamic

 

[DeathBurst]

+1
I heartily agree with the gist of this proposition.

My only concern is the "become king of X" ambition, that could be hard to modify. Apparently, areas in the game are much larger than kingdoms.
Another potential issue is the quasi-uselessness of the "Offer Vassalization" interaction, if the weighing of the decision by the AI is not re-balanced.

But all in all, I would prefer to see that system implemented than not, even with the potential issues.
Again, +1.

 

[DeathBurst]

I really really feel like this idea need some love, so I bump it a little. *no shame*

 

[Parha]

Just replace "Become King of kingdom X" with "Become King of REGION X". For those confused, Dev Diary 3

So that time of the week again and its time for me to make something up to write about. Today I decided to talk about regions and forts, two new concepts in Crusader Kings II.

First, regions isn't something that is going to affect you directly but it works somewhat like how it have done in the Europa Universalis Games. It's an area on the map that denotes a region with a name and it's mostly used to improve on our localization of things, such as hunting for tigers in India or hunting a deer in western Europe. So no longer will you find Tigers in the woods of Poland if you manage to move your capital of your Indian Empire out of the subcontinent. You can see these regions by opening up a province and click on the new region icon to get an outline of the region. It's also possible to search for regions in the old title finder.

 

[Rawrschach]

I would love the removal of all, or most, de-jure stuff, including duchies, at the start and give a top liege much more flexibility in the layout of his realm. It would let you build the country you want to see on the map.

My only concern is the "become king of X" ambition, that could be hard to modify. Apparently, areas in the game are much larger than kingdoms.

For this I think an ambition to "become king of the swedes/danes/saxons" would work. When you control a majority of the provinces with a certain culture (70% ?) you can form a kingdom there. The game could give you a popup suggesting some names for your new kingdom and a title you would hold. You might want that land to be called The Kingdom of Saxony, High Germany, Germania, name it after yourself e.g. Lotharingia etc etc. Your title could be King, High Duke, High Prince etc.

This would give countries similar to what is on the map anyway.

 

[Zolotaya]

Just replace "Become King of kingdom X" with "Become King of REGION X". For those confused, Dev Diary 3

Unfortunately, Groogy indicated that regions will not work this way - many of us wished to do this and more but it looks like it will not be as of this dlc. Maybe later.

 

[Sforzesco]

I have earlier also suggested that "cultural titular kingdoms". That could maybe be even better than become king of region x (or area 51). Minumum size should be applied of course. All of these are fully doable. Basic mechanics need only little work, balancing is an other thing but is has to done anyway with every major patch

 

[Icedaemon]

I have earlier also suggested that "cultural titular kingdoms". That could maybe be even better than become king of region x (or area 51). Minumum size should be applied of course. All of these are fully doable. Basic mechanics need only little work, balancing is an other thing but is has to done anyway with every major patch

If there are to be any pre-existing kingdom boundaries, I definitely like the notion of cultural rather than universal borders for various kingdoms and duchies. This makes a lot of sense in real-life terms, with several countries even now coveting the lands of others due to previous historical precedent, having people of one's culture living therein or (perceived) cultural similarity. The way these could become true de jure kingdoms could even involve event chains that necessitate diplomatic treaties.

 

[Thure]

Just replace "Become King of kingdom X" with "Become King of REGION X". For those confused, Dev Diary 3

Regions are not that... Regions are there to make clare 'Here are elephants!' for exemple. So your idea would be 'Become King of the Land of the Elephants' for exemple

Regions shouln't be the case here.

 

[DeathBurst]

Regions could be *also* that. If you look at the screenshot in the Dev Diary, you can see that the hovered county is in something like "Europe, Southern Europe, South-eastern Europe". You could just add one more level to represent "logical" or cultural areas, like "Island of Ireland", "Great Britain" or "Aquitaine"

 

[Thure]

Regions could be *also* that. If you look at the screenshot in the Dev Diary, you can see that the hovered county is in something like "Europe, Southern Europe, South-eastern Europe". You could just add one more level to represent "logical" or cultural areas, like "Island of Ireland", "Great Britain" or "Aquitaine"

Of course. But than we need a mechanism to split between formable regions and unformable regions. To form Aquitaine would make sense. To form South Eastern Europe wouldn't make sense.

 

[DeathBurst]

Could the people who vote disagree at least explain why?

I mean, this post has generated a fair amount of positive discussion, but the votes are, on the other hand, rather ambiguous. Why do we have only one side of the discussion?

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

Could the people who vote disagree at least explain why?

I mean, this post has generated a fair amount of positive discussion, but the votes are, on the other hand, rather ambiguous. Why do we have only one side of the discussion?

Because for example why you want to delete England in 769 or 867?, the idea of rule all the saxons kingdoms was there...

 

[Rawrschach]

Because for example why you want to delete England in 769 or 867?, the idea of rule all the saxons kingdoms was there...

The idea of a Saxon High King was there but remember that the Anglo-Saxons were not the English. Their country would be called England and would have the same traditional borders. It was maybe 900AD to 950 AD that a really united England was there.

Discussing removing de-jure is more to do with making each game more unique rather than the same countries forming with the same borders.

 

[Rags17]

Understand that the whole "dejure" system is really just a bit of a kludge to make in game kingdoms and empires turn out roughly the way they did in real life. Take away all the dejure duchies, kingdoms and empires in the game and you will see lots of aimless blobbing, with realms growing first one way then the next, with no "master plan" at all in mind. The dejure system also helps define common battlegrounds such as Iberia, Jerusalem and Armenia by giving the AI and the player a target for total control.

I am all in favour of maybe fixing some of the dejure realms as defined, but I am more than happy with the way that they work in principle.

BTW, someone developed a mythical "Shattered World"mod that makes every province in the game start as its own dejure duchy, kingdom and empire as well as having its own custom culture. I'm not sure if/when it is/was finished, but it sounds great - the game does have the additional overlay of terrain (which affects combat) so I am interested to see if borders and dejure realms rise in similar manner to historical versions, eg the Rhine and Danube as a definite borders, lots of petty realms in the Balkans, unified France and England etc.

 

[Sforzesco]

I did not mean to remove ALL de-jure-kingdoms, just those that are not relevant at given start time. I am no expert but England should be one of those that should stay de-jure, at least from 1066, maybe earlier too.

 

[Rags17]

The problem here is that all dejure areas are defined in a single file that is read once only at the start of the game, regardless of start date or any changes in the intervening periods. The 769 dejure map is the same as the 1337 dejure map, even though IRL 700 years of history obliterated the original ! There is thus no way to change these starting dejure areas, short of a mod that fires at game start to mess with the dejure layout in some predefined manner.

I suppose it could be possible, but I am not quite sure how !

EDIT - It looks like it can be modded in game !

 

[Thure]

The problem here is that all dejure areas are defined in a single file that is read once only at the start of the game, regardless of start date or any changes in the intervening periods. The 769 dejure map is the same as the 1337 dejure map, even though IRL 700 years of history obliterated the original ! There is thus no way to change these starting dejure areas, short of a mod that fires at game start to mess with the dejure layout in some predefined manner.

I suppose it could be possible, but I am not quite sure how !

It's possible. And look better at the de jure map it did change in different start dates

I just think it's a bit buggy at the moment.

 

[Sforzesco]

This is a suggest after all. Suggestion = please devs make impossible feature --> possible feature.

 

[Ruwaard]

(...)My only concern is the "become king of X" ambition, that could be hard to modify. Apparently, areas in the game are much larger than kingdoms.
Another potential issue is the quasi-uselessness of the "Offer Vassalization" interaction, if the weighing of the decision by the AI is not re-balanced. (...)

Well adding a become king ambition (without a specified kingdom)IMHO could also be a nice addition in general and could also apply here.