Certain Ethos/Government Types Overpowered?

[gathomas88]

Sooo... I'm looking over the options available, and it's really looking to me like certain government/ethos types have substantial advantages over others.

Materialist in particular seems like a bit of a "no-brainer" in comparison to Spiritualist. A Materialist, Militarist, Collectivist Despotic Hegemony or Military Dictatorship (or even Military Republic if you choose Individualist, not minding the hassle of elections, and preferring extra money to slaves) basically looks like it should be able to ROFLstomp the galaxy in short order from what I'm seeing. You get massive, stacking, bonuses to production, research, and war fighting alike.

+5 to 10 happiness, or -10 xenophobia, really doesn't look like much compared to that.

Should spiritualists maybe get a war tolerance bonus against materialists, or something along those lines, to give them a more sporting chance? Do they have in game abilities which balance things out a bit more, like the ability to call down "Holy Wars?"

Damnit Paradox, don't force me to play as Space Hitler here! Lol

 

[Alucardex]

Those numbers are not final. They are currently balancing the game and all we know about ethos and government stats could already be completely wrong.
Wait till the game is out and THEN we can talk about balance.

 

[leadshooter69]

Could be ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[patrikn]

Yes most likely some government forms will be more powerful than others. When we played the game for a bit we will know what they are. The powerful governments will be nerfed and people will be upset.

 

[ParagonExile]

We don't know enough about the game to draw conclusions about what bonuses are the most powerful.

 

[Bob_Herzog]

The thing is we can't really know the effects from each of those values yet. From what we have seen so far Fractions are an issue and it becomes worse when you start to conquer or use sectors. One thing to counter them is to keep people happy so +5 or +10 happiness might be worth more than on base face value. It may also depend on what other empires are around. People might not particulary like a Space Hitler ...

 

[Exemplar Voss]

+5 to 10 happiness, or -10 xenophobia, really doesn't look like much compared to that.

Haha. No...wait, you're serious?

Happiness boosts are huge (and the -10 xenophobia gets rid of a happiness penalty for multi-species empires). Unhappy Pops suffer a penalty to production of resources*, so those production bonuses you're getting from those 'OP' choices are being offset by a percentage reduction in production because they aren't as happy.

*A 50% happy Pop on a 3 mineral tile produces 1.5 minerals.
So a Pop with no happiness bonus but +10% mineral production should produce 3.3 * 0.5 or 1.65 minerals, while a Pop with a 10% happiness bonus but no bonus to mineral production produces 3 *0.6 or 1.8 minerals.

And of course, you have to get mineral production, energy production and research production separately (or in smaller bonuses to multiple categories), while happiness bumps everything simultaneously.

There are of course still ways to min/max it, but it is nowhere near X is crazy good and Y is useless.
Or ROFLstomps.

 

[moglus]

If the streams taught me anything it is that happiness bonuses are definitely not underpowered, if they were that "aganda" wouldn't have been nerfed.

 

[nuke4]

Yes some governments/ethos/traits will likely be better then others. Is this new, no. Is it different in most other games, no. Will they be overpowered, no and if they turn out to be they will be changed.

Please wait until you actually get some game time and/or actually have the slightest idea of how the mechanics works before you start worrying and complaining about them. You'll drive wiz insane.

 

[KonradKurze202]

Plus Xenophelia allows you to make fuller use of other species, meaning you can colonize more worlds and get a lot more resources that way. If you look at the Blorg they have a fair few worlds in their own space they haven't colonized yet and they have 2 other xenos in the empire already. How much weaker would they be if they weren't xenophile? They wouldn't have been able to colonize anywhere near as much, and they would have much more discontent alien pops.

 

[I_AM_King_Midas]

Haha. No...wait, you're serious?

Happiness boosts are huge (and the -10 xenophobia gets rid of a happiness penalty for multi-species empires). Unhappy Pops suffer a penalty to production of resources, so those production bonuses you're getting from those 'OP' choices are being offset by a percentage reduction in production because they aren't as happy.

Not to say whose side in agreeing with at this point but, lines like your top one are always annoying. With text there is not accidental laughing like that. It's only purpose was to be rude and upset the other guy.

 

[gathomas88]

The thing is we can't really know the effects from each of those values yet. From what we have seen so far Fractions are an issue and it becomes worse when you start to conquer or use sectors. One thing to counter them is to keep people happy so +5 or +10 happiness might be worth more than on base face value. It may also depend on what other empires are around. People might not particulary like a Space Hitler ...

True. We really don't know what those numbers factor into in real game terms yet. I'll be really curious, for example, to see how useful slaves actually are, given that many government types basically seem to wear their ability to use slaves as their "hat," of sorts.

It does seem that certain ethos and government types fall a little bit into "one trick pony" territory, however, where others far more easily lend themselves to a "jack of all trades" mentality.

 

[moglus]

Not to say whose side in agreeing with at this point but, lines like your top one are always annoying. With text there is not accidental laughing like that. It's only purpose was to be rude and upset the other guy.

Or you know, to convey or genuine reaction to a statement through text

 

[I_AM_King_Midas]

Even if it was a genuine reactions, sharing it doesn't add to anything. if someone rolls their eyes and thinks "this person is an idiot" ,we would all agree, it's not constructive to tell them how you just did that. You would just talk through your point.
Voicing that out loud would only detract from advancing the actual conversation.

 

[Exemplar Voss]

Even if it was a genuine reactions, sharing it doesn't add to anything. if someone rolls their eyes and thinks "this person is an idiot" ,we would all agree, it's not constructive to tell them how you just did that. You would just talk through your point.
Voicing that out loud would only detract from advancing the actual conversation.

It was a response to a kneejerk reaction that closed with 'Space Hitler, LOL!'
I'm not going to treat it like a formal academic debate, even though I was kind enough to show the math as to why the premise was... flawed, and not just roll my eyes.

 

[tilcir]

I don't know...

I am hoping the game is complex enough, that you would need everything to be overpowered and that you will ALWAYS feel like you should have made another choice to get everything to work perfectly.

Might be strong in military, but once you grow, you have a hard time keeping things together.

You might be superior in tech, but those magic space neighbours kick your ass.

You might have everyone enslaved, but no one likes you and you just helped form the space HRE because of that... and god Damn it 7 empires in a federation is a tough nut to crack wheb no one want to be your friend....

And so on...

At least... that is my hope

 

[TheGrinningMan]

Even with a good testing team, there's gonna be balance issues like crazy at first, as players find exploits and strategies unexpected by Paradox. But speculating on the exact details at this point is... well, it always takes a few months of post-release play by the unwashed masses to cobble together a tier list worth the metaphorical paper it's printed on.

 

[Helsync]

I'd probably say despotic empire looks like the most overpowered government ;p

In these games the start tends to mean alot... just imagine all those resource bonuses on top of the buildings discount during the early game.

Eitherway, some people are clearly trapped in old mindsets from playing other games *cough* civilization *cough* instead of actually looking at this game on its own. Research bonuses won't be as valuable as some people seem to think ;p

 

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

@Exemplar Voss is right but understates the case, because that happiness penalty is going to apply to everything, including science. This means that a happiness bonus is a science bonus too.

 

[sethfc]

I dislike all these balance discussions before release, but here are my two cents.

For one, Ethos have bonuses we have Not been shown (Examples include edicts, techs, alternative governments, and event options as well as other bonuses not directly listed) Secondly, you obviously have not paid attention to the streams, 10% happiness, and 10% ethics divergence reduction (if you go fanatic spiritualist and combine it with a theocracy) is incredibly powerful, granting you both a more productive and less politically troublesome population, heck the ethics divergence is a government bonus, so it even applies to your conquered/alien pops, and slowly converts them for more happiness!

Other bonuses also work well, Pacifists can more easily form alliances, and build influence, as well as have more embassies, democracies bonuses 'look' 'small' but in actuality they get to frequently gain new leader bonuses due to elections both the leaders abilities, and their special election mandate/promise which grants empire wide effects.

Hell for once elections look fun, or at least interesting because of how great that election mechanic is.

Xenophobia is incredibly problematic for a diverse empire, as the happiness penalty can reduce productivity and even lead to political bickering, so xenophilia can be an incredible advantage, especially if you for example bring in a science race for science tiles, worker race for minerals and farming race for agriculture, and want them to all get along without negating the bonuses you're trying to cultivate with xenophobia.

TLDRon't judge before release, and please watch the streams most of what you complain about is actually perfectly fine, and even the opposite in some cases such as happiness.