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Mr Me

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Cliffracer RIP said:
A small population does not imply poverty. And Sweden had plenty of trade, beacause Sweden was a major producer of Iron Ore, Timber and Whale Oil.
How do you catch whales in the baltic sea? This is also in the wrong time period, whale oil wasn't important until later.

Cliffracer RIP said:
It had the resources to wage war, and the ability to trade those resources for grain.
The main resource needed for war was and is money, which Sweden had little of. Gustav Vasa and many other Swedish kings had to borrow huge amounts of money from Lubeck in order to wage war. Also, Sweden was and is self sufficient with grain.

Cliffracer RIP said:
By the looks of things the main achievement of Gustavus was actually gaining independance from Denmark, not centralisation as such.
Cliffracer RIP said:
Gustav Vasa's main achievement was commercial, he carved out a market by asserting the indendance of Sweden economically, which itself stimulated growth in those areas.
L2History

Cliffracer RIP said:
Sweden and Norway (it's main competitor) and thus not starting off on an even footing. Sweden is actually in a better position than Norway.

Sweden's two main competitors were always Denmark and Russia. Norway can be viewed as a part of Denmark but it was not very important as it was fairly poor and had a very low population. Denmark was much richer and with both the sound due and a large agricultural production it was a powerful competitor.
It seems like you don't know much about the historical situations you are arguing about. Instead you are trying to use some modern theories which can't really be applied to the societies of medieval europe.[/SIZE]
 
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Evie HJ

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The association of "Decentralization in EU III necessarily equals feudalism" is false, though. Decentrlization means giving more power and influence to regional authority ; which may or may not consist of feudal nobles - they can be anything from named governors with lots of authority (colonial british empire) to (surprise, surprise) elected representative assemblies that are under the authority of a greater such assembly.

"Feudalism", in EU III term, is not Centralized-Decentralized alone, but a combination of heavy decentralization, heavy aristocracy, heavy quantity and heavy serfdom, plus controlling several other states as vassals.
 

Dakk

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Arilou said:
And feudal constructions were notoriously unstable, because sooner or later some vassal would refuse to pay, and then you'd have to raise an army to MAKE him pay. Which meant you had to increase the tribute, which meant the other vassals got grumpier. Which meant they refused to pay, which meant you had to pay even more armies....

Mmmm.. I feel like playing CK right away. :D
 
Jan 31, 2004
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Kenshin said:
The decentralised slide should give higher revoltrisk and lower tolerance. And maybe a penalty to number of provinces. That should reflect why some states stay decetralised and others go for central goverment. And also why a centralised Spain had difficulties with the netherland.

Do I get you right? The decentralised side should have higher revolt risk and lower tolerance?? I would imagine that it should be the other way around which would also be more in line with your Spain/Netherlands example. In the particular case Spain/Netherlands we have a distinct religious conflict probably aggravated by cultural difference though. I was trying to think on a generally logical line: a more local government would be more acceptable to local people and less likely to alienate them and would leave many issues decided on a local level -> less stability cost, less revolt risk. At the same time of course less money for the crown, less trade (different weight and measuring systems etc. etc., less infrastructure) and also less tecnological advance.
 

unmerged(68610)

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I was trying to think on a generally logical line: a more local government would be more acceptable to local people and less likely to alienate them and would leave many issues decided on a local level -> less stability cost, less revolt risk. At the same time of course less money for the crown, less trade (different weight and measuring systems etc. etc., less infrastructure) and also less tecnological advance.

This makes perfect sense to me. Decentralization ought to be useful for sprawling empires with lots of cultures and religions. Other states should benefit from centralization.

Wasn't it something like this is EU2? Why did they have to go and muck around with it?
 

Arilou

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Guillaume HJ said:
The association of "Decentralization in EU III necessarily equals feudalism" is false, though. Decentrlization means giving more power and influence to regional authority ; which may or may not consist of feudal nobles - they can be anything from named governors with lots of authority (colonial british empire) to (surprise, surprise) elected representative assemblies that are under the authority of a greater such assembly.

"Feudalism", in EU III term, is not Centralized-Decentralized alone, but a combination of heavy decentralization, heavy aristocracy, heavy quantity and heavy serfdom, plus controlling several other states as vassals.

Britain was heavily centralized (until the entire devolution shenaningans it was one of the most centralized states in Europe) admittedly this was not really a factor for the colonies, but I'd hesitate to even include them in the centralized/decentralized schematic.

I agree that feudalism is not the be-all end-all of democracy, it was the most common form however, but others (from clan-loyalties in Persia to... Well, you get the point) existed as well.

EDIT: Ideally centralization should give you better tech and income, but it should cause increased revolt risk and stab costs for non culture/religion provinces. Decentralization should have reduced "wrong religion/culture" penalties, but higher tech research and lower income.
 

unmerged(68610)

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Britain was heavily centralized (until the entire devolution shenaningans it was one of the most centralized states in Europe) admittedly this was not really a factor for the colonies,

Yeah, and their colonies went and revolted because they didn't like paying taxes to the central government in London. Surely the perfect example of the perils of overcentralization in a large empire.

This is surely the key trade-off. More centralization = more tax revenue, but less stability and higher revolt risk.

Also note that the English Civil War initially began when the Scots revolted against the centralizing policies of Charles I. Another good example, showing that over-centralization was risky in a multinational state.

I agree that feudalism is not the be-all end-all of democracy

You mean decentralization not democracy, I think.
 

unmerged(4444)

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Arilou said:
EDIT: Ideally centralization should give you better tech and income, but it should cause increased revolt risk and stab costs for non culture/religion provinces. Decentralization should have reduced "wrong religion/culture" penalties, but higher tech research and lower income.
I agree (assuming "higher tech research" means "higher tech research costs). This would jive well with what actually happened irl without making one side or the other a no-brainer for all countries.
 

Arilou

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Yeah, and their colonies went and revolted because they didn't like paying taxes to the central government in London. Surely the perfect example of the perils of overcentralization in a large empire.

If anything it was the result of the stab-hit from moving the centralization towards centralization. The british empire was not centralized even then, they were simply trying to make the colonies actually, you know, pay what they cost.

If anything it was the fact that the colonies had built up competing decentralized structures that lead to the fracture.

Also note that the English Civil War initially began when the Scots revolted against the centralizing policies of Charles I. Another good example, showing that over-centralization was risky in a multinational state.

In this case mostly religious and not political centralization though (although the two are often intertwined)
 

Kenshin

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Thomas Paine said:
Do I get you right? The decentralised side should have higher revolt risk and lower tolerance??
Well, I meant the other way around as my example showed :) Sorry

Aren´t the centralisation slider showing all centralization so to speak? So that infact also show the religious things, depending on the form of goverment.
Cent theocraty equals the pope
Centralised merchant republic --> diMedici
cent monarchy -->loads of examples, see above
and so on.

Do not equal feodalism with this slider as someone already said. And do not make anachronistic claims without any support than your own opinion.

Btw, the trade routes Sweden tried to controll where the rivermouth of Elbe (Bremen), Oder (Stettin and Stralsund) and Weichsel (Danzig). My taxing them they would have controlled the trade in the baltic.
 
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Arilou

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Aren´t the centralisation slider showing all centralization so to speak? So that infact also show the religious things, depending on the form of goverment.

I figured that was more covered by narrowminded/innovative *shrugs*

Btw, the trade routes Sweden tried to controll where the rivermouth of Elbe (Bremen), Oder (Stettin and Stralsund) and Weichsel (Danzig). My taxing them they would have controlled the trade in the baltic

Don't forget the Neva, and err.... That river around Riga.
 

unmerged(68610)

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In this case mostly religious and not political centralization though (although the two are often intertwined)

They were closely connected in this case. Imposing Anglicanism on Scotland also meant imposing the authority of bishops appointed by the the king.

There's a good discussion of the Bishops' Wars in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishops'_Wars), which notes:

It is important to stress that this contest was as much about power and politics as it was about theology and belief. For James VI, who famously said that no bishop meant no king, the episcopal office was an essential adjutant to the crown.
 
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unmerged(68610)

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This thread has inspired me to do a bit of research about this topic, and I am starting to understand why Paradox chose to link the degree of decentralization with technological advancement. It seems that there are quite a few historians and economists who believe that political decentralization during this period helped to foster economic development.

A lot of these arguments stem from the extraordinary economic success of the Dutch Republic, which was unusual in that it was highly decentralized politically. This has led to the theory that Holland’s decentralized structure aided its economic advancement:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-18516981.html
http://bkmarcus.com/cache/Raico/ClassicalLiberalism/
http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/rb/rb134.html

For example:

Attempting to understand how the Dutch system actually functioned, the author first analyzes the roots of governmental power in Holland's virtually sovereign towns, where much of the people's loyalty to their local area was focused, and where political activity was controlled by factions of a narrow, privileged elite. As he proceeds, Price takes pains to demonstrate that urban oligarchies were typically flexible and pragmatic in their responses to public issues. They were driven, the author asserts, more by their sense of what would best serve the economy.

Of course, the trouble with the Dutch example is that it focuses on just one country, and it is hard to single out the effects of decentralization from other “slider settings”. In game terms Holland during this period would not just be decentralized, but also extremely plutocratic and innovative. Maybe it was this plutocracy and innovativeness, and not political decentralization per se, which explains Holland’s commercial success?

The obvious counter-example would be aristocratic, narrow-minded, “feudal” societies, where decentralization (supposedly) went hand-in-hand with medieval backwardness. However, it turns out that a lot of authors now challenge this stereotype of feudalism. They argue that in Europe in general, feudal-style political decentralization was good for economic growth:

http://www.mises.org/story/2404
http://www.iisg.nl/research/jvz-economic_growth.pdf
http://www.compilerpress.atfreeweb.com/Anno Engerman The big picture Research Policy 1994.htm

In a particularly interesting and relevant paper, two Harvard economists study the effect on city growth (their proxy for economic growth during this period), of different types of political regimes during the early modern period.

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/pdf_files/Princes.pdf

They conclude:

This result has implications both for the historical analysis of Europe and for the analysis of modern economic growth. European historians have often written to celebrate the firm establishment of princely authority: princes like Louis XIV “the sun-king” of France, Frederick II “the great” of Prussia, and Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain are heroes to many because of their successful construction of the absolutist states that provided the cores around which the nation states of the nineteenth-century were to grow.
But from the perspective of the welfare of the people alive at the time, or of the long-term growth of the economy, princely success is economic failure. For the people of southern Italy, the creation of the d’Hauteville regno was no blessing; for the people of Belgium, their incorporation into the Habsburg Empire was no benefit; for the people of Iberia, the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella was no cause for rejoicing. The rise of an absolutist government and the establishment of princely authority are, from a perspective that values the progress of opulence, processes to be mourned and not celebrated.


One drawback with this analysis is that the authors are more concerned with the division between “absolutist” and “non-absolutist” regimes than they are with the issue of centralization or decentralization per se. So, for example, England would score high marks for being a constitutional, plutocratic state (even though it was also centralized). Again we run into the problem that what qualifies as “absolutist” in game terms encompasses not just the centralization/decentralization slider, but also other sliders such as aristocracy/plutocracy.

However, it’s clear from their analysis that one reason why absolutist states performed poorly is that they were politically centralized, and cared less about local economic development than local elites did. They contrast the economic success of politically decentralized regions with the stagnation of regions that become part of a centralized monarchy (northern Italy v southern Italy, northern Netherlands v southern Netherlands).


This does not mean that centralization is necessarily a bad choice overall. The point is that centralized states were very successful at mobilizing resources and projecting their power, militarily and internationally, which is what mattered to most rulers of the time. However, these authors argue or imply, decentralized states were more successful at commerce and long-term economic growth.

This makes me more comfortable with Paradox’s interpretation, linking the centralization/decentralization slider with technological progress. Whether the balance of the effects is right is hard for me to judge, but the general principle seems to me to be quite defensible.
 
Last edited:
Jan 31, 2004
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Whilst I have not studied the sources you refer to and am not really familiar with the Dutch history I wonder in how much the relative success of the regions (Dutch/England/Nort Italy) are attributable to political decentralisation. As for England you admit centralisation was there and I would very much guess that the Dutch had some central authority for waging the war against the Spanish. An aspect that strikes me for both countries is that they had closeness to naval transport for much of their country - a great asset in terms of pre-railroad infrastructure.
I remember from my studies on the formative period of the United Statesd that merchants and many planters wanted a stronger central government for economic reasons (trade agreements, trading position with foreign powers, uniform currency, standards and measures for a larger domestic market) as well as political ones (keeping the ordinary people controlled) - which is why the US abandoned the Articles of Confederation and formed the Union of 1787 (US Constitution)
Whilst I would certainly not claim that people were happier under a centralised government I think that a lot speaks for greater financial and political power at the centre of the more centralised governments - and that is the role we are playing in EU3. This is why I chose the modifications I made (and EU2 logic was the same way) and thank the development team that in EU3 we can easily define the effects of the policy sliders pretty much as we like it - which we couldn't before.
 

Arilou

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The obvious counter-example would be aristocratic, narrow-minded, “feudal” societies, where decentralization (supposedly) went hand-in-hand with medieval backwardness. However, it turns out that a lot of authors now challenge this stereotype of feudalism. They argue that in Europe in general, feudal-style political decentralization was good for economic growth:

I don't think that is neccessarily wrong, HOWEVER, said economic resources would be unavailible for the government (which is, after all, what we are representing in the EU games) You cannot hire armies, found colonies or commission ships with a "good economy", it all depends on how effectively you can actually make use of those resources.

This does not mean that centralization is necessarily a bad choice overall. The point is that centralized states were very successful at mobilizing resources and projecting their power, militarily and internationally, which is what mattered to most rulers of the time. However, these authors argue or imply, decentralized states were more successful at commerce and long-term economic growth.

I'm not really arguing against that, but in-game... Well, it doesen't matter how much gold your peasants have unless it somehow ends up in your coffers (where you can spend it or invest it as you see fit)

One drawback with this analysis is that the authors are more concerned with the division between “absolutist” and “non-absolutist” regimes than they are with the issue of centralization or decentralization per se. So, for example, England would score high marks for being a constitutional, plutocratic state (even though it was also centralized). Again we run into the problem that what qualifies as “absolutist” in game terms encompasses not just the centralization/decentralization slider, but also other sliders such as aristocracy/plutocracy.

Not to mention the actual government-type.

This makes me more comfortable with Paradox’s interpretation, linking the centralization/decentralization slider with technological progress.

I'd by far prefer the decentralization slider to ameliorate the effects of having a vast empire (lowering the stab-cost per province, perhaps, and especially reducing the penalties for wrong state-culture and religions)
 

Kenshin

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@morse: Good research

Shouldn´t the slider reflect on how costly it is to provide the new technology to the whole country, so that in a decentralized country its cheaper/easier spread aka in CK and in a centralized country you get more money and can put more into research (More tax) but its harder to get the whole country to get it (higher cost to research) since all desitions are made in the central goverment (and since if you have a small # of provinces then its cheaper to resarch and if you have a lot of provinces then the cost goes up.)

But the effects should be tweaked as in some of the mods. So that you either have to have a really dec state and really low income or a maximum of 50 provinces or the whole country goes bang and revolt if you try to take more (think China and why they stoped expanding)
 

unmerged(68610)

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I'd by far prefer the decentralization slider to ameliorate the effects of having a vast empire (lowering the stab-cost per province, perhaps, and especially reducing the penalties for wrong state-culture and religions)

Yes, this seems logical to me too.
 
Last edited:
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Kenshin said:
@morse: Good research

Shouldn´t the slider reflect on how costly it is to provide the new technology to the whole country, so that in a decentralized country its cheaper/easier spread aka in CK and in a centralized country you get more money and can put more into research (More tax) but its harder to get the whole country to get it (higher cost to research) since all desitions are made in the central goverment (and since if you have a small # of provinces then its cheaper to resarch and if you have a lot of provinces then the cost goes up.)

But the effects should be tweaked as in some of the mods. So that you either have to have a really dec state and really low income or a maximum of 50 provinces or the whole country goes bang and revolt if you try to take more (think China and why they stoped expanding)

For all I know EU3 (and EU2 before that) takes the number of provinces into account ie. the total research points needed go up with the number of provinces. Therefore it is better to expand by conquering/colonising richer provinces that fit into your empire and not to take all and everything regardless of culture and religion.


Re Arilou
you can change it towards that way. This is how it looks in my personal mod:

#########################################################
# Centralisation <----> Decentralisation
#########################################################
centralization_decentralization =
{
#rebel_delay = 1.25
max_war_exhaustion = -0.4 #changed from + to - so decentralisation works toward lower war exhaustion #ie. lower resistance to ongoing war
land_tech_cost_modifier = 0.01 # changed all tech cost modifiers to positive so that
trade_tech_cost_modifier = 0.01 # centralisation gives a bonus as would be logic was in real history and;
naval_tech_cost_modifier = 0.01 # in EU2 ; heri
government_tech_cost_modifier = 0.01
production_tech_cost_modifier = 0.01
stability_cost_modifier = -0.03 # introduced as a bonus for decentralisation for balance heri

global_tax_modifier = -0.01


production_efficiency = -0.01
spy_efficiency = -0.01

left_specific = {
}
right_specific = {
}
}
 
Last edited:

Arilou

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so decentralisation works toward lower war exhaustion #ie. lower resistance to ongoing war

I think that is actually wrong: The ability to wage lenghtier wars was one of the main attractive traits of centralization.

Remember, Sweden was more or less in permanent war for something like 80 years, and yet did not experience any large-scale rebellion.

land_tech_cost_modifier = 0.01 # changed all tech cost modifiers to positive so that
trade_tech_cost_modifier = 0.01 # centralisation gives a bonus as would be logic was in real history and;
naval_tech_cost_modifier = 0.01 # in EU2 ; heri

I could actually split that up, so decentralization works for better trade tech while centralization works for better land and/or government tech.... Hmmm....