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Arilou

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powerful and wealthy regimes are able to centralise more, beacause they have more money to pay for expensive buerocracies.

Counter-example: Sweden.
A horribly, poor and backwards nation that, because of superior centralization, managed to spank the neighbours around for a century (until the neighbours caught up)

Certainly there is no rational reason why centralisation is superior to de-centralisation, centralised regimes have to pay for huge non-productive buerocracies to do anything, and the lower orders are generally lacking in initiative, creating a demand for an ever expanding buerocracy.

And de-centralized societies end up creating competing (and redundant) systems, working at cross-purposes, slowing reforms (as each decision has to be approved on several levels) disturbs economies of scale....

The reason that centralisation happens is beacause rulers like to be more powerful and powerful and wealthy states have the means to centralise.

Again, that does not explain how a piss-poor country like Sweden could centralize, and why.

The Ottoman Empire fell victim of it's sheer size, which placed so much pressure upon the buerocracy of the CENTRALISED Ottoman state

The Ottoman state was famously decentralized: The ruling was largely left to provincial governors of various types. It had a huge number of different corporations with relative self-governance (millets, etc. etc.) and did, by large, not keep very good track of either it's population or it's economic resources.
 

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Counter-example: Sweden.
A horribly, poor and backwards nation that, because of superior centralization, managed to spank the neighbours around for a century (until the neighbours caught up)

Sweden was neither poor nor backwards to my knowledge. It had decent trade and a decent army.

And de-centralized societies end up creating competing (and redundant) systems, working at cross-purposes, slowing reforms (as each decision has to be approved on several levels) disturbs economies of scale....
Centralisation leads to administrative paralysis, corruption, vulnrability to high-level stupidity, expensive and ever expanding beurocracies, lack of initiative, poor understanding of local conditions.

Again, that does not explain how a piss-poor country like Sweden could centralize, and why.
Sweden was not piss poor, that's why. It had good natural resources and plenty of trade.

The Ottoman state was famously decentralized: The ruling was largely left to provincial governors of various types. It had a huge number of different corporations with relative self-governance (millets, etc. etc.) and did, by large, not keep very good track of either it's population or it's economic resources.

Of course, you try and run a nation the size of the Ottoman Empire directly from Istambul. It just couldn't be done and would lead to massive instances of the centralisation problems mentioned above.

The thing about centralisation is that is not actually possible, unless you are running a very small area. The best you can manage is to appoint beurocrats and governers from the centre to rule the various regions you have, and implement your laws and edicts.
 

Arilou

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Sweden was neither poor nor backwards to my knowledge. It had decent trade and a decent army.

*because* of centralization. How do you think Sweden could afford that nice army? By continously and ruthlessly centralizing the country, making sure that every man was accounted for (for taxation and conscription) making sure that every official knew what to do....

Centralisation leads to administrative paralysis, corruption, vulnrability to high-level stupidity, expensive and ever expanding beurocracies, lack of initiative, poor understanding of local conditions.

Administrative paralysis isn't any less of a problem in a decentralized system (because in order to raise troops to defend A you'll need to have an assembly of notables in province B....) nor is corruption (In fact, many people apparently saw the king and the royal beaureaucracy as a guarantee against abuses from local nobles) admittedly, high-level stupidity is somewhat ameliorated by decentralized systems, but then, it gets a whole lot harder to mobilize all of society's resources for some task. Lack of initiative is as endemic among decentralized states as among centralized ones, and lack of local conditions is weighed out by a lack of "big picture" thinking.

Sweden was not piss poor, that's why. It had good natural resources and plenty of trade.

In 1453? Or even 1520? No. The country was extremely scarcely populated, had very little trade, the largest city had a few thousand inhabitants.... Denmark was richer by a lot, Poland by several magnitudes, even Russia by far.

Of course, you try and run a nation the size of the Ottoman Empire directly from Istambul. It just couldn't be done and would lead to massive instances of the centralisation problems mentioned above.

Of course. (And this is something that, for some reason, is not implemented, the logical sequence would be that centralization allows efficient governing of small number of same-culture, same-religion provinces while decentralization reduces the penalties for having a lot of provinces, especially of non-state cultures and religions)

The thing about centralisation is that is not actually possible, unless you are running a very small area.

France managed it pretty well. As did England. Admittedly these were not China or the Ottoman empire, but they were hardly "a small area" either.

The best you can manage is to appoint beurocrats and governers from the centre to rule the various regions you have, and implement your laws and edicts.

And create functions that ensure that those governors actually do what you say.

Provincial governors did not make the Ottomans decentralized: The fact that they ruled essentially without input (and what they recieved they could ignore) form the Sultan did.
 

unmerged(47151)

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*because* of centralization. How do you think Sweden could afford that nice army? By continously and ruthlessly centralizing the country, making sure that every man was accounted for (for taxation and conscription) making sure that every official knew what to do....

Sweden has plenty of natural resources and a good position for trade. This meant they had a large amount of wealth that could be taxed by the central goverment, (tariffs were normally more centralised than taxation and conscription) giving it money to centralise the rest of the economy.

Switzerland did fine and was pretty wealthy, despite bieng extermely decentralised.

Administrative paralysis isn't any less of a problem in a decentralized system (because in order to raise troops to defend A you'll need to have an assembly of notables in province B....) nor is corruption (In fact, many people apparently saw the king and the royal beaureaucracy as a guarantee against abuses from local nobles) admittedly, high-level stupidity is somewhat ameliorated by decentralized systems, but then, it gets a whole lot harder to mobilize all of society's resources for some task. Lack of initiative is as endemic among decentralized states as among centralized ones, and lack of local conditions is weighed out by a lack of "big picture" thinking.

True however centralised states have the problem that the expense of doing anything at all is vastly increased.

Basically you need a whole bunch of people ferrying messages back and forth on a constant basis, and a whole bunch more people to police the beurocrats in order to prevent corruption, and then a whole load more people to police those beurocrats and so on.

Whilst in a de-centralised states the local rulers usually know what their area would benefit from and can still observe what others are doing and learn what works and what doesn't.

However the problem is that in order to run such a system effectively, the various rulers must have an active interest in the fate of their local area and of course the various areas are in competion with one another.

As a result the tendancy is for a few areas to monopolise production of certain things and use their revenue to further develop and enrich themselves, rather than the other areas developing.


In 1453? Or even 1520? No. The country was extremely scarcely populated, had very little trade, the largest city had a few thousand inhabitants.... Denmark was richer by a lot, Poland by several magnitudes, even Russia by far.

A small population does not imply poverty. And Sweden had plenty of trade, beacause Sweden was a major producer of Iron Ore, Timber and Whale Oil.

The cities weren't big, but they didn't need to be since the population was not big and they were mostly markets anyway.

Of course when you think about it, what Sweden had in abundance was a great deal of wood and iron. WOOD AND IRON ARE THE STAPLE RESOURCES FOR MILITERY.

As a result Sweden became a militery power, beacause supporting militery is a lot cheaper when you produce a great deal of wood and iron.

Of course. (And this is something that, for some reason, is not implemented, the logical sequence would be that centralization allows efficient governing of small number of same-culture, same-religion provinces while decentralization reduces the penalties for having a lot of provinces, especially of non-state cultures and religions)

True, but probably all the areas in the game are sufficiantly big, that one couldn't govern even 1 province directly, given the limited communications of those time.


And create functions that ensure that those governors actually do what you say.

Provincial governors did not make the Ottomans decentralized: The fact that they ruled essentially without input (and what they recieved they could ignore) form the Sultan did.

True, but that was probably to the advantage of the empire, I mean what benefits could really be obtained from the Sultan in Istambul interfering in the local affairs of some far-flung province. Making the Sultan feel more powerful?

In general all you really need from them in order to make the nation strong is two things, gold or troops. Everything else can more or less be handled by the provincial governer, the central goverment only needing to inverene if things get way out of hand and the local ruler abuses his power in a serious way.

By the looks of it, what the Ottoman Empire really needed was essentially a fuedal system, the central rulers generally leaving the provinces alone as long as they delivered up tributes or soldiers when needed.

The problem was that the Ottomans tried to run things in a centralised way, when the 'traditions' of the people over whom they ruled, went the other way. People trying to reform the Ottoman Empire to make it more 'modern' ie centralised, alieviated the problem, when they'd have been better off simply running things on a liege/vassal system (ie fuedalism).
 

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I won't enter the debate regarding the historical effects of centralization versus decentralization. My education in history will likely be no match for others.

However, if I am reading the game mechanics right, decentralized is not the lousy choice I thought it was. It really does depend on your circumstances. Basically, if you are country who gets more than 50% of its income from trade, decentralized may be the better option, especially when paired with certain national ideas (shrewd commerce practices, national trade policy) and full plutocracy (bonus to trade income). On the other hand, countries that have very high production incomes, thanks to the goods they produce, benefit from centralization. Also, ironically, small countries benefit from decentralized because tiny countries get so much more effect from advisors and event-based research boosts.

I'm glad that there is at least a reasonable choice and it is not just one is absolutely better than the other (at least, in the game).
 

unmerged(68610)

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Counter-example: Sweden. A horribly, poor and backwards nation that, because of superior centralization, managed to spank the neighbours around for a century (until the neighbours caught up)

There are a lot of resources about Swedish history on the internet. For example:

From http://www.amazon.com/Seventeenth-Century-European-History-Perspective/dp/0333731573

Sweden would never achieve the heights of literary, artistic, scholarly, or commercial sophistication of states like England, France, Spain or the Netherlands. But it excelled at something absolutely necessary for success in seventeenth century Europe: the ability to make war for long periods with limited resources.

From all appearances, Sweden was ill-equipped to be a 'great power' at the dawn of the seventeenth century. Compared with the other territorial states along the Baltic rim - Denmark, Poland, and Russia - Sweden was poor, primitive and dangerously underpopulated.

From http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/cmh/cmh405.html

GUSTAVUS VASA at his death in 1560 left the future of Sweden only half assured. His forty years of resolute government, indeed, had done much to establish in his dominions a condition of unexampled prosperity. The strength of the nation had grown as the authority of the Crown increased. In 1520 Sweden had been a dependency of Denmark, unable to free herself from the political tyranny of Christian II without submitting to the commercial tyranny of Lübeck. Gustavus had given her independence, political, commercial, and ecclesiastical alike, and with it the strength which was impelling her towards a policy of empire. The amazing progress which Sweden owed to the founder of /the Vasa dynasty was achieved by a policy which was to leave deep marks upon her future.

...

The wealth of Sweden was no greater than might be looked for in a land where less than one million people were strewn over a vast area, and in a climate which neither incited nor richly rewarded industry. Foreigners in Sweden remarked that the people were long-lived, adaptable, and cheerful, but that they were unskilled in the arts and disinclined for sobriety and steady work. Communications were poor, and commerce feeble. A great part of the royal revenue was paid in kind. The mines and fisheries, from which Gustavus had hoped so much, were not in themselves sufficient to support a large population or to supply an abundant revenue.

From www.britannica.com/ebi/article-29860

The early Vasa kings created the Swedish state. Its chief characteristic was a strong monarchy in a rather rustic and backward economy

From http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/BasicFactsheet____3116.aspx

However, Sweden was, except for some small iron works and the copper mine at Falun, a purely agrarian country based on a natural economy, and lacked the resources to maintain its position as a great power in the long run.


All of this leads me to believe that Arilou does indeed know what he's talking about.

Prussia is another good example of a poor country that became powerful because of a strong centralized monarchy.
 

unmerged(47151)

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Sweden would never achieve the heights of literary, artistic, scholarly, or commercial sophistication of states like England, France, Spain or the Netherlands. But it excelled at something absolutely necessary for success in seventeenth century Europe: the ability to make war for long periods with limited resources.

From all appearances, Sweden was ill-equipped to be a 'great power' at the dawn of the seventeenth century. Compared with the other territorial states along the Baltic rim - Denmark, Poland, and Russia - Sweden was poor, primitive and dangerously underpopulated.

Sweden had the main resources that people needed in those days to wage war, Iron and Wood. Indeed these were the resources it got money from exporting to others. It had the resources to wage war, and the ability to trade those resources for grain.

GUSTAVUS VASA at his death in 1560 left the future of Sweden only half assured. His forty years of resolute government, indeed, had done much to establish in his dominions a condition of unexampled prosperity. The strength of the nation had grown as the authority of the Crown increased. In 1520 Sweden had been a dependency of Denmark, unable to free herself from the political tyranny of Christian II without submitting to the commercial tyranny of Lübeck. Gustavus had given her independence, political, commercial, and ecclesiastical alike, and with it the strength which was impelling her towards a policy of empire. The amazing progress which Sweden owed to the founder of /the Vasa dynasty was achieved by a policy which was to leave deep marks upon her future.

Or the other way around, the strength of the Crown increased as Sweden prospered?

By the looks of things the main achievement of Gustavus was actually gaining independance from Denmark, not centralisation as such.

Of course, that makes sense beacause the main rival of Sweden is Norway, ruled by the Danish. By establishing economic independance, Sweden would have been able to prosper based on the resources which Norway also produces, Norway of course is Danish in this era.


However, Sweden was, except for some small iron works and the copper mine at Falun, a purely agrarian country based on a natural economy, and lacked the resources to maintain its position as a great power in the long run.

All of this leads me to believe that Arilou does indeed know what he's talking about.

Prussia is another good example of a poor country that became powerful because of a strong centralized monarchy.
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This is before the Industrial Revolution, almost everywhere is a primerily agrarian economy.

However Sweden had resources which Norway and the Danish produced also. Gustav Vasa's main achievement was commercial, he carved out a market by asserting the indendance of Sweden economically, which itself stimulated growth in those areas.

In game terms, what he touched was the mercantalism/free trade slider, not the centralisation slider as such.
 

Arilou

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Sweden has plenty of natural resources

Some iron and a large copper deposit. Both were significant, but compared to what the other countries in the region had, pretty useless.

and a good position for trade.

Compared to Denmark? You must be joking. Sweden managed to *acquire* a good position, but that was the ends, not the means.

his meant they had a large amount of wealth that could be taxed by the central goverment

You are simply wrong in this. Sweden did not have a large amount of wealth to be taxed: Indeed, taxes were usually higher than in most other places. For the simple reason that they had to be. And these taxes were collected using the heavily centralized swedish beaureaucracy, one of the more effective in Europe.

The king of Denmark, for instance, had, via the Sound Due, access to wealth that would dwarf anything the swedes could put out until the mid-1600's.

Switzerland did fine and was pretty wealthy, despite bieng extermely decentralised.

Mainly by virtue of not being worth the hassle. They were completely unable to exert any kind of power outside of Switzerland.


True however centralised states have the problem that the expense of doing anything at all is vastly increased.

Not neccessarily. Because in a decentralized state you might have to hold conferences and local assemblies, rather than just sending orders.

Basically you need a whole bunch of people ferrying messages back and forth on a constant basis,

True.

and a whole bunch more people to police the beurocrats in order to prevent corruption

And in a decentralized system there is no one to police the local notables.
On the local level things could quickly develop into mafia-type situations.


Whilst in a de-centralised states the local rulers usually know what their area would benefit from and can still observe what others are doing and learn what works and what doesn't.

Assuming that they are not simply trying to enrich themselves. I fear you are vastly overestimating the dedication to the common good for the average 17th century nobleman.


However the problem is that in order to run such a system effectively, the various rulers must have an active interest in the fate of their local area and of course the various areas are in competion with one another.

Agreed.

As a result the tendancy is for a few areas to monopolise production of certain things and use their revenue to further develop and enrich themselves, rather than the other areas developing.

Not even that, it can easily lead to dissenssion (when two regional power-centres quarrels and there is no central authority strong enough to curb their belligerence)

A small population does not imply poverty. And Sweden had plenty of trade, beacause Sweden was a major producer of Iron Ore, Timber and Whale Oil.

Irrelevant. The major source of income at this time was, and always remained, agriculture, and the taxes and duties thereof. Tolls and incomes from industry could be crucial, because they came in coinage and not products, but the entire basis of society was agricultural produce....

The cities weren't big, but they didn't need to be since the population was not big and they were mostly markets anyway.

And this means less tax-paying citizens, less money, which means a smaller army....

Of course when you think about it, what Sweden had in abundance was a great deal of wood and iron. WOOD AND IRON ARE THE STAPLE RESOURCES FOR MILITERY.

While Sweden did have an advantage in the large forests (which, btw. were heavily protected by the state, for exactly the reasons you mentioned: IE: They would have been useless without the centralized state anyway....) the iron-produce was probably less important: The 17th century simply isn't the 19th, and while iron (and copper) where crucial products they could always be imported.


As a result Sweden became a militery power, beacause supporting militery is a lot cheaper when you produce a great deal of wood and iron.

Not in this timeframe.

True, but that was probably to the advantage of the empire, I mean what benefits could really be obtained from the Sultan in Istambul interfering in the local affairs of some far-flung province. Making the Sultan feel more powerful?

Making sure all the taxes were actually paid and did not "disappear" along the way is one of the more crucial things. Not having some governor start a private war another. Keeping tabs on rebellions a third....

In general all you really need from them in order to make the nation strong is two things, gold or troops. Everything else can more or less be handled by the provincial governer, the central goverment only needing to inverene if things get way out of hand and the local ruler abuses his power in a serious way.

The problem is that if you give the local governors too much power they have a tendency to stop listening to the demands for gold and troops, having better (in their mind) uses for them.

By the looks of it, what the Ottoman Empire really needed was essentially a fuedal system, the central rulers generally leaving the provinces alone as long as they delivered up tributes or soldiers when needed.

The problem was that the Ottomans tried to run things in a centralised way, when the 'traditions' of the people over whom they ruled, went the other way. People trying to reform the Ottoman Empire to make it more 'modern' ie centralised, alieviated the problem, when they'd have been better off simply running things on a liege/vassal system (ie fuedalism).

The Ottomans essentially *were* a feudal system (okay, not exactly, there are some important differences, but for the purpose of this discussion they are pretty much the same)

Sweden had the main resources that people needed in those days to wage war, Iron and Wood. Indeed these were the resources it got money from exporting to others. It had the resources to wage war, and the ability to trade those resources for grain.

Sweden did not import grain in significant quantities at this time. The really significant import was salt.

Or the other way around, the strength of the Crown increased as Sweden prospered?

No, read up on it.

By the looks of things the main achievement of Gustavus was actually gaining independance from Denmark, not centralisation as such.

He formed the embryo of what would later become the swedish beaureaucracy under Axel Oxenstierna (and that, in the main directives, is still active) largely by formalizing appointment procedures a little bit, and expanding his chancellry.

Of course, that makes sense beacause the main rival of Sweden is Norway,

Okay. Now it's official: You have no idea what you are talking about.

By establishing economic independance, Sweden would have been able to prosper based on the resources which Norway also produces, Norway of course is Danish in this era.

Until the 18th century Norway produced negliglible amounts of income for the danish Crown (mostly from fisheries) taxes on the danes themselves and of course the Sound Due were the main sources of income.

This is before the Industrial Revolution, almost everywhere is a primerily agrarian economy.

However Sweden had resources which Norway and the Danish produced also. Gustav Vasa's main achievement was commercial, he carved out a market by asserting the indendance of Sweden economically, which itself stimulated growth in those areas.

In game terms, what he touched was the mercantalism/free trade slider, not the centralisation slider as such.

He touched both (interestingly, while Gustav was very much an economic interventionist he was not a mercantilist per se, his objective was to secure stores of resources that could be consumed in times of need, which meant he stimulated import and tried to prevent exports, in many ways he was an anti-mercantilist)
 

unmerged(47151)

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Some iron and a large copper deposit. Both were significant, but compared to what the other countries in the region had, pretty useless.

I think you are rather understating things. Only Norway is arguably better off in that regard than Sweden. Finland was Swedish and I'm not sure what resources Finland had.

Compared to Denmark? You must be joking. Sweden managed to *acquire* a good position, but that was the ends, not the means.

Sweden is close to Russia, the Baltic and Poland and has good trade routes to that area, while Denmark has good trade routes with the west.

The actions of Sweden, suggested a great deal of importance with the trade around that area, for instance Swedens expansion into the Baltic at one point.

You are simply wrong in this. Sweden did not have a large amount of wealth to be taxed: Indeed, taxes were usually higher than in most other places. For the simple reason that they had to be. And these taxes were collected using the heavily centralized swedish beaureaucracy, one of the more effective in Europe.

The king of Denmark, for instance, had, via the Sound Due, access to wealth that would dwarf anything the swedes could put out until the mid-1600's.

If Sweden was as poor as you say it was (which I very much doubt), then charging higher taxes via your centralised and efficiant taxation system is likely to harm the economy even more, expecially if it's being spent on guns and warships rather than re-invested into the economy. The sums don't add up.

From the standpoint of a dirt poor country, establishing an efficiant beurocracy with taxes that are higher than in wealthier countries, is likely to be the worst thing you can do.

Remember that Denmark and Sweden are not directly comparable. Denmark while it benefits from transit trade, is poor in the key raw materials or iron, copper and wood.

It gets those from Norway.

Now look where Norway is located, it is located on the West Side of Denmark, which means that whilst the traders can import to Denmark, if they are to go East, then they must pay the Sound Toll, and of course the distances are greater.

This adds to the price of Norweigian (and thus Danish) Iron and Wood and Oil.

Now let's take our Swedes, they can outdo the Norweigian trade in the Baltic and Russia, beacause of shorter distances involved and the lack of the Sound Due to pay.

Sweden and Norway (it's main competitor) and thus not starting off on an even footing. Sweden is actually in a better position than Norway. The Sound Due upon which the Danes got rich, actually ultimately created a perfect economic enviroment for Sweden's rise beacause it weakened Norways eastern trade prospects.

Mainly by virtue of not being worth the hassle. They were completely unable to exert any kind of power outside of Switzerland.

And why would they want to exert power outside of Switzerland? They were stable, happy and rich where they were. Why would they want to risk their lives to take over other places? Switzerland was not crippled, just sane.

Not neccessarily. Because in a decentralized state you might have to hold conferences and local assemblies, rather than just sending orders.

However by having such conferences and assemblies, you have to consider in more detail your decisions and alternatives courses of actions are aired. The danger of just "giving orders" is that people are often closeminded and do not consider alternatives, or even know them.

Secondly, local rulers, councils or whatever, usually have a greater understanding of local problems, that one man that often lives 100s of miles away, only recieving information through several layers of beurocrats.

And in a decentralized system there is no one to police the local notables.
On the local level things could quickly develop into mafia-type situations.

This is actually more likely to happen in a centralised system, in areas where goverment control is weak.

A de-centralised system, as long as you make sure that the whole nation is covered and there aren't two many large 'cracks', where no-one officially holds power.

A local chief, ruler, council or whatever usually has a far greater understanding of affairs in the local area. Corruption and Crime are themselves local problems for the most part.

Good bi-Lateral communications are needed, the worst situation you can get into with such a situation, is where relations between regions get so poor than corrupt elements can escape justice in one just by running into another area.


Assuming that they are not simply trying to enrich themselves. I fear you are vastly overestimating the dedication to the common good for the average 17th century nobleman.

Correct. However a centralised state goverment would hardely be any more devoted to the 'common good' than a de-centralised one.

However in a de-centralised system, the looting grounds for each individual are so much smaller, if they kill their area, then this will harm their prospects for self-enrichment, while a kleptocratic central goverment, has far more to steal. Thus if they are to enrich themselves, they must ensure the strength of their small area, beacause by so doing they can ensure a reliable source of income for themselves. The problem is that this can in some cases lead to active support of piracy and crime directed at other areas, beacause they seek to enrich their small area and thus themselves at the expense of the others.

Actually for the most part trying to empower themselves, is more a concern of nobles than enriching themselves, since for the most part they are already rich. Thus there is a drive towards centralisation on the part of the higher ranks, eventually all the way up to the King.

While Sweden did have an advantage in the large forests (which, btw. were heavily protected by the state, for exactly the reasons you mentioned: IE: They would have been useless without the centralized state anyway....) the iron-produce was probably less important: The 17th century simply isn't the 19th, and while iron (and copper) where crucial products they could always be imported.

So the guns and ships and pots and pans and ploughs and whatever are made of thin air? I don't think so. The demand for iron and copper, wasn't invented in the 19th century.

You've got the idea though. Sweden was the exporter of those things, not the importer. The Danish Sound Toll would have created a nice little advantage over Norway which I mentioned above, creating a whole market.

As a result it is cheaper for them to produce armies and ships, than for the others who need to import those things, increasing the cost.


And this means less tax-paying citizens, less money, which means a smaller army....

However, for reasons mentioned above, armies would be cheaper for Sweden than for other nations, save perhaps Denmark, which explains why Denmark was such a deadly enemy for Sweden.

In general the problem is not raising manpower but arming it and supporting it with ammunition and supplies.


The problem is that if you give the local governors too much power they have a tendency to stop listening to the demands for gold and troops, having better (in their mind) uses for them.

Well, unless you are really, really de-centralised you can then threaten to depose them if they don't cough up. If you are working on a 'fuedal understanding', the vassals 'buy' their autonomy by paying their tribute.

If you are dealing with a state so de-centralised that things don't work that way, then really you are in a Swiss type confederation.

In that case, it a question of what you are using to gold and the troops for. If that is the case they probably aren't prepared to cough up troops or gold for the purposes of fighting some war of mindless agression you've just dreamt up.

Hence explaining why Switzerland has been so peaceful and isolationist, for it's entire history. Nobody has ever managed to convince the cantons to give up gold or troops for some war that doesn't concern them in any way.

Of course the Cantons have faught eachother a fair deal, so I don't think a World Switzerland would really bring world peace ;) ;).


Sweden did not import grain in significant quantities at this time. The really significant import was salt.

Okay, that makes sense.


Of course, that makes sense beacause the main rival of Sweden is Norway,


Okay. Now it's official: You have no idea what you are talking about.

LOL, I mean that the same resources that Sweden produces, are also produced in Norway, so Norway (and thus Denmark) would be economically a trade rival to Sweden.

Denmark/Norway were unified, so in effect Norway really means Denmark.


Until the 18th century Norway produced negliglible amounts of income for the danish Crown (mostly from fisheries) taxes on the danes themselves and of course the Sound Due were the main sources of income.

Correct, but this is not the Danish Crown we are talking about here. We are talking about the production of Iron, Copper, Wood, Oil, Fish etc, goods which Sweden itself produces.

Also, Denmark is provided with those resources by Norway, even if the Crown doesn't get a great deal of income, indirectly this means that Norway does fund them, beacause this stops them from having to buy the resources from Sweden or further afield.

It's a relatively short boat trip from Norway to Denmark, meaning that it's fairly cheap to import the goods from Norway. Which reduces the price of the goods, meaning that the price of weapons and ships goes down, which actually funds the goverment.

He touched both (interestingly, while Gustav was very much an economic interventionist he was not a mercantilist per se, his objective was to secure stores of resources that could be consumed in times of need, which meant he stimulated import and tried to prevent exports, in many ways he was an anti-mercantilist)

Not really, the whole thing looks like ultimate mercantalists dream. Reducing exports, has the neat effect of increasing price, which assuming Sweden has a captured market, means that they can earn just as much from doing less work.

This frees up more of the population to do other things than mine iron ore and cut down trees, which creates a more varied economy and more importantly for Gustav, to serve in the army.

The kind of goods Sweden produces, are militerily very useful, so all in all the combination of the factors is mercantalism for the purposes of not only economic but militery strength.

Lastly, by reducing exports while still making more money (beacause again the cost of shipping all those resources costs money) thus actually making Sweden richer, Sweden also makes everyone elses armies and fleets more expensive, which again magnifies Swedens militery advantage.

All in all, a very clever mercantalist strategy to ensure both wealth and militery strength for Sweden.
 

Gunner243

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Just wondering Cliffracer RIP, but have you ever actually done any research on Sweden in this time period? I'm not saying that its impossible that you have, but it seems like just about every point you make is the exact opposite of everything I've read. Many of your conclusions seem like they were created simply by looking at a map for a few minutes.

To be clear, I'm really not trying to attack you personally or anything. I'm just incredibly curious about the things you're saying and am wondering if there are others who have espoused them before.
 
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unmerged(68610)

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By the looks of things the main achievement of Gustavus was actually gaining independance from Denmark, not centralisation as such.

From Wikipedia:

Gustav Vasa (Gustav I), whose real name was Gustav Eriksson (May 12, 1496–September 29, 1560) of the royal house of Vasa, was King of Sweden from 1523 until his death. He was elected regent in 1521 after leading the rebellion against Christian II of Denmark, who controlled most of Sweden. During his reign Protestantism was introduced in the Swedish realm.
Gustav was an enigmatic person who has been referred to as both a liberator of the country and as a tyrannic ruler, which has made him the subject of many books. When he came to power in 1523, he was largely unknown, and he became the ruler of a still divided country without a central government. Though not as famous as most of his continental contemporaries, he became the first truly autocratic native Swedish sovereign and was a skilled propagandist and bureaucrat who laid the foundations for a more efficient centralized government.

...

Gustav has been regarded by some as a power-hungry man who wished to control everything: the Church, the economy, the army and all foreign affairs. But in doing this, he also did manage to unite Sweden, a country that previously had no standardized language, and where individual provinces held a strong regional power. He also laid the foundation for Sweden's professional army that was to make Sweden into a regional superpower in the 17th century.
 

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Since cliffhanger alwways refer to Iron, then... CANNONS WHERE MADE OF COPPER during EU timeframe!
During a period in the 17th century, when Sweden was a great power, the Falun copper mine accounted for 70% of the world production of copper.
Falukoppargruvas homepage
And its not until the Wallon immigration that the iron and steel production became significant in the export
Norway do not pay sound due, they where a part of Denmark
Denmark chopped all forest from Skåne, Halland and Åkershus.

Sweden couldnt trade with russia, since THEY HAVE EVERYTHING Sweden could offer except copper. The main trading partners where western europe. England bought wast amount of oaktree to build navy.
Wikipedia said:
The first British furnaces outside the Weald were not built until the 1550s, but many were built in the remainder of that century and the following ones. The output of the industry probably peaked about 1620, and was followed by a slow decline until the early 18th century. This was apparently because it was more economic to import iron from Sweden and elsewhere than to make it in some more remote British locations.


All wars sweden wage where to controll the trade. They tried to controll all rivers that came into the baltic.

Stop arguing about things you do not have studied Cliffhanger, or come up with something that support your arguments.

Switzerland could defend themself and yes they where rich, but the state/goverment waren´t rich enough to go outside their hills. Only their mercanaries Even if they had a larger manpowerbase than Sweden.

Sweden had ALL population counted for since 1560. You can still track your relatives down to that time. EVERYONE of them. (Excpet for unknown fathers)
So you could tax everyone or conscript them.

For example, lether are more important to an army than wood, but not to a navy, but you cant build warships out of pinetrees or birches, only oaks.
 
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Cliffracer RIP, as others I kind of wonder if you've actually studied any Swedish/Baltic history. What you're arguing is pretty much contrary to anything they teach over here, even at university level.


Kenshin said:
Since cliffhanger alwways refer to Iron, then... CANNONS WHERE MADE OF COPPER during EU timeframe!

Which Sweden WAS the man exporter of in the world at the time (2/3s of the worlds copper came from the mines in Bergslagen) ;) Much of what later became Swedish iron was not minable during this timeframe.

Kenshin said:
Sweden had ALL population counted for since 1560. You can still track your relatives down to that time. EVERYONE of them. (Excpet for unknown fathers)
So you could tax everyone or conscript them.

Just going to add that unkown fathers where extremely rare at this time. Due to legislation mostly, they start to pop up later during the 1700s when women are no longer obliged to name a father when giving birth.

Swedish population statistics are the most exact in the world this early and onwards for the sole purpose of collecting the necesary taxes to support a Swedish Great Power with such a limited population (and have therefore been the basis of many demographic theories (the demographic transition is for instance almost entirely modelled upon Swedish population numbers, this is also why Sweden is almost the only country that conforms to those models entirely ;))).
 
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centralisation helped improve producton, trade and technological advance

As far as I know and see it centralisation helped to increase production, trade and also promoted technological advance. The time span of EU is one of a general transition from decentralised feudal to centralised nation states (regional deviations from the rule granted). This meant more power and money at the crown level.
In EU2 centralisation gave a tech bonus - in vanilla EU3 decentralisation does.
After some thought I have modified my game so centralisation gives the tech bonus and have incorporated a stabilisation cost bonus for the decentralised side of the slider. To me that seems more logical than the vanilla solution.
 

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Thomas Paine said:
As far as I know and see it centralisation helped to increase production, trade and also promoted technological advance. ...
After some thought I have modified my game so centralisation gives the tech bonus and have incorporated a stabilisation cost bonus for the decentralised side of the slider. To me that seems more logical than the vanilla solution.
The decentralised slide should give higher revoltrisk and lower tolerance. And maybe a penalty to number of provinces. That should reflect why some states stay decetralised and others go for central goverment. And also why a centralised Spain had difficulties with the netherland.
 

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Since cliffhanger alwways refer to Iron, then... CANNONS WHERE MADE OF COPPER during EU timeframe!

Which *was* one of Sweden's main exports.

Sweden couldnt trade with russia, since THEY HAVE EVERYTHING Sweden could offer except copper. The main trading partners where western europe. England bought wast amount of oaktree to build navy.

True, Sweden make sure to collect the tolls on russian goods going to western Europe though.

I think you are rather understating things. Only Norway is arguably better off in that regard than Sweden. Finland was Swedish and I'm not sure what resources Finland had.

Actually, Norway's deposits are (and where) much smaller than Sweden's. Norway mostly got their income from fishing and forestry products. (But the latter didn't really escalate until the 18th century)

Sweden is close to Russia, the Baltic and Poland and has good trade routes to that area, while Denmark has good trade routes with the west.

The actions of Sweden, suggested a great deal of importance with the trade around that area, for instance Swedens expansion into the Baltic at one point.

Any trade route for Sweden, Denmark can match.

And the reason Sweden expanded was *exactly* to improve it's position and conquer new trade-routes.... BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAVE THEM!

Russia and Poland were not significant markets for swedish goods: What Sweden could export they could largely produce for themselves. But by conquering the trade-routes the swedish state could levy tolls on these products as they were exported to the west (and the route to the west was controlled by Denmark....)

If Sweden was as poor as you say it was (which I very much doubt), then charging higher taxes via your centralised and efficiant taxation system is likely to harm the economy even more, expecially if it's being spent on guns and warships rather than re-invested into the economy. The sums don't add up.

Yes it did. Eventually. (and the constant war also lead to a very skewed ratio of genders)

But you assume that guns and warships don't turn a profit: They do, because you can take what belongs to the other guy. And also the swedish state heavily invested in improving the economy (among other things by setting up collegies, improving tax-collection, organizing the mining industry...) *so that it could field more guns and more ships*.

You are trying to project a modern free-market ideology onto a time where it did not exist: A horrible anachronism.

From the standpoint of a dirt poor country, establishing an efficiant beurocracy with taxes that are higher than in wealthier countries, is likely to be the worst thing you can do.

No, because it means you can field an army and go steal things from your neighbours, take control of *thier* trade routes and wealthy areas, and start taxing them.

Remember that Denmark and Sweden are not directly comparable. Denmark while it benefits from transit trade, is poor in the key raw materials or iron, copper and wood.

Denmark also had greater manpower, and exported tons of agricultural products that were very profitable.

Now look where Norway is located, it is located on the West Side of Denmark, which means that whilst the traders can import to Denmark, if they are to go East, then they must pay the Sound Toll, and of course the distances are greater.

But the markets weren't in the East! The markets were in Britain, The Netherlands, France and to some degree Germany (Hamburg could be reached without paying the Sound Due)

Now let's take our Swedes, they can outdo the Norweigian trade in the Baltic and Russia, beacause of shorter distances involved and the lack of the Sound Due to pay.

Except that Sweden never did have much of a trade: It left that to the dutch and simply taxed them as they passed through.

And why would they want to exert power outside of Switzerland? They were stable, happy and rich where they were. Why would they want to risk their lives to take over other places? Switzerland was not crippled, just sane.

Strangely enough Sweden did not have this luxury, but has to constantly defend (and attack) against aggressive neighbours. Denmark wanted to restore the Kalmar Union, Russia to take Finland, Poland to return Sigismund to his rightful throne.... Switzerland was an anomaly as it was not involved in politics much (and was useful as a source of mercenaries) Sweden simply did not have that luxury.

However by having such conferences and assemblies, you have to consider in more detail your decisions and alternatives courses of actions are aired. The danger of just "giving orders" is that people are often closeminded and do not consider alternatives, or even know them.

Agreed, and the danger of having to negotiate each deal separately is that your enemy's army by the time you've raised your forces has occupied your capital and is eating all your food.

Don't misunderstand: More or less *every* action the swedish state took was in order to be able to fight wars more effectively: There was no other choice. Expand or be pounded into submission. Win or die. To quote Goethe.

Mann muss herrschen und gewinnnen
oder dienen und verloren
lieden oder triumfieren
Amboss oder Hammer sein


Secondly, local rulers, councils or whatever, usually have a greater understanding of local problems, that one man that often lives 100s of miles away, only recieving information through several layers of beurocrats.

Assuming that these local rulers actually live in the area (not certain, lots of nobles had holdings in one are and demanded to be informed about any goings-on-there while living somewhere else)


A de-centralised system, as long as you make sure that the whole nation is covered and there aren't two many large 'cracks', where no-one officially holds power.

A local chief, ruler, council or whatever usually has a far greater understanding of affairs in the local area. Corruption and Crime are themselves local problems for the most part.

Except that the local elites (don't delude yourself: These are the people we are talking about here) will oppress the local populace far more than the State (because the state is far away, it's simply harder to tyrannize from a centralized position, really)

Good bi-Lateral communications are needed, the worst situation you can get into with such a situation, is where relations between regions get so poor than corrupt elements can escape justice in one just by running into another area.

Or that one region turns corrupt altogether and the elites turn their eyes to fleecing the commoners.

Why do you think the peasantry were so strong supports of a centralized monarchy?

Correct. However a centralised state goverment would hardely be any more devoted to the 'common good' than a de-centralised one.

True, but the King is far away and his representatives are bound by rules and codes of conduct (they can't fleece the people just anyhow) a local nobleman can much more effectively skin his peasants because he lives closer to them.

However in a de-centralised system, the looting grounds for each individual are so much smaller, if they kill their area, then this will harm their prospects for self-enrichment, while a kleptocratic central goverment, has far more to steal. Thus if they are to enrich themselves, they must ensure the strength of their small area, beacause by so doing they can ensure a reliable source of income for themselves. The problem is that this can in some cases lead to active support of piracy and crime directed at other areas, beacause they seek to enrich their small area and thus themselves at the expense of the others.

No, because the central government has to consider the future in ways a noble family won't: Sweden can't just pick up their stuff and move to Germany for instance, unlike a nobleman. Besides, the state also has to contend with representatives from all the four estates.


Actually for the most part trying to empower themselves, is more a concer of nobles than enriching themselves, since for the most part they are already rich. Thus there is a drive towards centralisation on the part of the higher ranks, eventually all the way up to the King.

Not true. Nobles generally preferred *de*-centralization: That gives them greater power (big fish in a small pond and all that) the king+commoners generally preferred centralization (peasants because it somewhat protected them from noble oppression, bourgesie because the beaureaucracy gives them great job-prospects, and priests because they are government employees)

So the guns and ships and pots and pans and ploughs and whatever are made of thin air? I don't think so. The demand for iron and copper, wasn't invented in the 19th century.

But these deposits were common in Europe (not yet exhausted), and the largest ones in Sweden were impossible to exploit until the 19th century and more effective methods of iron-smelting.


However, for reasons mentioned above, armies would be cheaper for Sweden than for other nations, save perhaps Denmark, which explains why Denmark was such a deadly enemy for Sweden.

In general the problem is not raising manpower but arming it and supporting it with ammunition and supplies.

Not really, the most important thing is cold hard cash to pay the armies and buy the materiels. Remember, most armies (including the swedish one) were made up of mercenaries.

And yes, armies would be cheaper for Sweden, because in addition to hire mercenaries the swedish state could conscript the populace (because it had pretty exact records of who was born, who died, etc. etc.) which is a result of the centralized beaureaucracy. (in this case the Church)

Well, unless you are really, really de-centralised you can then threaten to depose them if they don't cough up. If you are working on a 'fuedal understanding', the vassals 'buy' their autonomy by paying their tribute.

And feudal constructions were notoriously unstable, because sooner or later some vassal would refuse to pay, and then you'd have to raise an army to MAKE him pay. Which meant you had to increase the tribute, which meant the other vassals got grumpier. Which meant they refused to pay, which meant you had to pay even more armies....

And either you win, and replace them with your own (who will do the same thing a few years later) or you lose and get deposed, OR you replace them with paid beaureaucrats without an independent powerbase.


In that case, it a question of what you are using to gold and the troops for. If that is the case they probably aren't prepared to cough up troops or gold for the purposes of fighting some war of mindless agression you've just dreamt up.

Or that they don't care that the enemy is standing in your capital. The polish nobility was notoriously sluggish in providing funds (although they did eventually).

Hence explaining why Switzerland has been so peaceful and isolationist, for it's entire history. Nobody has ever managed to convince the cantons to give up gold or troops for some war that doesn't concern them in any way.

No one had any real incentive too. The Habsburgs were too busy on other fronts for most of the period. Sweden's enemies did not *have* other fronts.

Not really, the whole thing looks like ultimate mercantalists dream. Reducing exports, has the neat effect of increasing price, which assuming Sweden has a captured market, means that they can earn just as much from doing less work.

No, mercantilism is all about increasing exports and decreasing imports in order to get a positive flow of cash. Gustav's economic policy was all about setting up stores of goods to be consumed when needed. (He basically run the country as a large-scale household)


This frees up more of the population to do other things than mine iron ore and cut down trees, which creates a more varied economy and more importantly for Gustav, to serve in the army.

The kind of goods Sweden produces, are militerily very useful, so all in all the combination of the factors is mercantalism for the purposes of not only economic but militery strength.

Lastly, by reducing exports while still making more money (beacause again the cost of shipping all those resources costs money) thus actually making Sweden richer, Sweden also makes everyone elses armies and fleets more expensive, which again magnifies Swedens militery advantage.

That is patently false: Simply because Sweden did not ship those resources. The Hansa (and later the dutch) did.
 

Garbon

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Kenshin said:
The decentralised slide should give higher revoltrisk and lower tolerance. And maybe a penalty to number of provinces. That should reflect why some states stay decetralised and others go for central goverment. And also why a centralised Spain had difficulties with the netherland.

Yea, there should be benefits for a large empire going decentralized or at least staying further away from centralization.
 

unmerged(47151)

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Any trade route for Sweden, Denmark can match.

And the reason Sweden expanded was *exactly* to improve it's position and conquer new trade-routes.... BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAVE THEM!

Russia and Poland were not significant markets for swedish goods: What Sweden could export they could largely produce for themselves. But by conquering the trade-routes the swedish state could levy tolls on these products as they were exported to the west (and the route to the west was controlled by Denmark....)

Yes, the Swedish state wanted to obtain the trade routes to the east, beacause the Swedish state wanted to equalise themselves against the Danish, by controlling a bottleneck in the trade routes, which would vastly increase their own wealth and combined with the superior resources of Sweden, establish themselves as superior to Denmark.

They had their own trade routes to the east, they wanted to control the rest of the eastern trade, from places other than Sweden, which would enrich them.

Yes it did. Eventually. (and the constant war also lead to a very skewed ratio of genders)

But you assume that guns and warships don't turn a profit: They do, because you can take what belongs to the other guy. And also the swedish state heavily invested in improving the economy (among other things by setting up collegies, improving tax-collection, organizing the mining industry...) *so that it could field more guns and more ships*.

You are trying to project a modern free-market ideology onto a time where it did not exist: A horrible anachronism.

What Sweden wanted to control was additional trading routes, which would even the playing field against Denmark, which controls trade routes by it's geographical location.

Hence the focus of Sweden militery ventures was on the Baltic as that was where the eastern trading routes went through.

Of course ultimately the whole venture failed, and I'm not sure if Sweden was so much worse off due to it.


No, because it means you can field an army and go steal things from your neighbours, take control of *thier* trade routes and wealthy areas, and start taxing them.

However, those places are wealthy and thus they can afford to field a decent army.

And if you do manage to conquer them, the money you earn from this, is spent keeping those places under control and fighting even more wars to protect them against powers who are reacting to your disrupting of the cosy trading relationships they doubtless have with those places.

Denmark also had greater manpower, and exported tons of agricultural products that were very profitable.

I never said that Denmark didn't export loads of agricultural goods. I just said that they are lacking in the resources which Sweden and to a lesser extent norway produce in adundance.

Strangely enough Sweden did not have this luxury, but has to constantly defend (and attack) against aggressive neighbours. Denmark wanted to restore the Kalmar Union, Russia to take Finland, Poland to return Sigismund to his rightful throne.... Switzerland was an anomaly as it was not involved in politics much (and was useful as a source of mercenaries) Sweden simply did not have that luxury.

Switzerland faught the Austrians who were trying to establish themselves in Austria quite successfully, until they gave up.

Agreed, and the danger of having to negotiate each deal separately is that your enemy's army by the time you've raised your forces has occupied your capital and is eating all your food.

Don't misunderstand: More or less *every* action the swedish state took was in order to be able to fight wars more effectively: There was no other choice. Expand or be pounded into submission. Win or die. To quote Goethe.

However by the time you've managed to orginise the recruitment of army from a base 100s of miles away with all your beurocrats running back an forth, your enemy could quite easily be in your capital and eliminate your completely.

Since you have no other power-bases in your country, your beurocracy will now work for the invadors and your country is utterly conquered.

Whilst a de-centralised system, means that the enemy has to conquer each and every region, in order to stop your forces from regrouping. The mere capture of the capital will not make much difference.

And there is another option to expanding or bieng pounded into submission. Let the idiots who think likee that kill oneanother while you sell them guns and merceneries to help them in their job and loan them money.

By so doing they become dependant on you, so you are safe and you can prosper while they turn onanothers countries into blasted ruins by their constant warfare. Switzerland is the best.

Assuming that these local rulers actually live in the area (not certain, lots of nobles had holdings in one are and demanded to be informed about any goings-on-there while living somewhere else)

True, but that is effectively a form of centralisation.

Except that the local elites (don't delude yourself: These are the people we are talking about here) will oppress the local populace far more than the State (because the state is far away, it's simply harder to tyrannize from a centralized position, really)

Petty officials can tyrinnise just as well as local elites can. The State can oppress people just fine, beacause the state will try and impose uniformity on the population, in order to make them easier to govern and it will usually do so by tyrannise.


Or that one region turns corrupt altogether and the elites turn their eyes to fleecing the commoners.

Why do you think the peasantry were so strong supports of a centralized monarchy?

Beacause of something called the "grass is greener on the other side". In a de-centralised system, the peasants don't have any experiance of the central rulers, except the central rulers shoving their immediate overlords into line when they were bad.

As a result of an abscence of any experiance of central goverment, except a regulatory one, they tend to have a positive view of it.

True, but the King is far away and his representatives are bound by rules and codes of conduct (they can't fleece the people just anyhow) a local nobleman can much more effectively skin his peasants because he lives closer to them.

Whose going to make sure those representatives follow the rules of conduct? And whose to say the people aren't simply going to be fleeced by central goverment, to pay for big palaces for the king, rather than for the local nobles.

Essentially fleecing is a problem whether your system is centralised or de-centralised.

Not true. Nobles generally preferred *de*-centralization: That gives them greater power (big fish in a small pond and all that) the king+commoners generally preferred centralization (peasants because it somewhat protected them from noble oppression, bourgesie because the beaureaucracy gives them great job-prospects, and priests because they are government employees)

Baby nobles preferred de-centralisation, beacause their prospects of becoming something important in a regime with fewer positions of power were slim.

The bigger the nobles are, the more they like centralisation. The King is the biggest noble of them all, so he likes centralisation a great deal.

If all the nobles got together to vote as equals, then de-centralisation would prevail since baby nobles outnumber big nobles.

But each noble as an individual wants to centralise, at the expense of the nobles below him in the food chain, while protecting himself against those higher up in it.

And feudal constructions were notoriously unstable, because sooner or later some vassal would refuse to pay, and then you'd have to raise an army to MAKE him pay. Which meant you had to increase the tribute, which meant the other vassals got grumpier. Which meant they refused to pay, which meant you had to pay even more armies....

And either you win, and replace them with your own (who will do the same thing a few years later) or you lose and get deposed, OR you replace them with paid beaureaucrats without an independent powerbase.

Exactly the same thing will happen with your population in the centralised system. Sooner or later someone will tax-fiddle, then you'll need to pay a tax collector to come and get him, which requires more taxes me raised, which means more people will tax-fiddle, which requires more tax collectors to be payed and so on.

The more tax collectors you pay, the more taxes are needed to support them, and so on.

Overall, the question is why would a vassal want to lose his cosy estate, in order to fight a war he will probably lose and end up deposed from his cosy estate and probably executed or exiled, and replaced with another?

Or that they don't care that the enemy is standing in your capital. The polish nobility was notoriously sluggish in providing funds (although they did eventually).

To my probably limited understanding of Polish history, wasn't the main problem that there was dynistic problems in Poland, that there wasn't really a universally recognised Polish King to deliver up funds too.


No one had any real incentive too. The Habsburgs were too busy on other fronts for most of the period. Sweden's enemies did not *have* other fronts.

Or was it just that the Austrians got beaten by the Swiss the first time they tried to take it over.
 

Merrivale

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I'm not going to pretend I know more about Swedish history than either Arilou or Cliffracer, but in just reading the arguments, it looks to me like Cliffracer is projecting a modern argument for the effectiveness of decentralized (local) government versus the evils of centralized government. Trying to put a round peg in a square hole, because of course our modern notions of decentralized government would look like a centralized government on the order of a -4 or -5 on the slider in EU3 times.

What I think led to the march toward centralization in general in Europe was the simple human failing of greed. Local nobles were greedy, for both power and money, which of course conflicted with the monarch's (or head of state) desire for power, glory, and wealth. Not to mention the adminstrators around the monarch, who also wanted power, glory, and wealth. So the monarchies tried to take as much control into their hands as possible, while the nobles fought it. Let's be honest, neither group really cared about the peasants lot in life (in general).

The positive effects of feudal (or quasi-feudal) centralization can be mostly greatly seen in Louis XIV's France. The most dominant state in Europe at the time, France had a standing army, one of the most efficient economies in Europe, and extremely talented national officials. Of course, the amazing fact that they were able to get all of their tax income without taxing the nobles at all helped lead to the French Revolution.
 
Last edited:

Arilou

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However, those places are wealthy and thus they can afford to field a decent army.

Of course, which is why it only works if the other guys are worse at pouring their wealth into the army/government (IE: Centralization slider)

And if you do manage to conquer them, the money you earn from this, is spent keeping those places under control and fighting even more wars to protect them against powers who are reacting to your disrupting of the cosy trading relationships they doubtless have with those places.

And if you don't, sooner or later the other guys gets bored and looks for something to put their armies to use.

You are using a wholly anachronistic way of viewing the actors of the time.

However by the time you've managed to orginise the recruitment of army from a base 100s of miles away with all your beurocrats running back an forth, your enemy could quite easily be in your capital and eliminate your completely.

Which is why you have such things as "Standing Armies" and "Forts", all of which are paid for by the taxes levied by the central government.

Whilst a de-centralised system, means that the enemy has to conquer each and every region, in order to stop your forces from regrouping. The mere capture of the capital will not make much difference.

True, although this could also mean that after your capital falls everyone goes their own way and stop listening to you (why listen to someone who lost the capital?)

And there is another option to expanding or bieng pounded into submission. Let the idiots who think likee that kill oneanother while you sell them guns and merceneries to help them in their job and loan them money.

But even in this timeframe this doesen't work unless you have an army and a navy yourself: The dutch eventually could not keep up the naval race with the english and avoid the everpresent threat of the french, and with that they also lost their preeminent position as financiers.

True, but that is effectively a form of centralisation.

No,

Petty officials can tyrinnise just as well as local elites can. The State can oppress people just fine, beacause the state will try and impose uniformity on the population, in order to make them easier to govern and it will usually do so by tyrannise

Eventually, yes.

But for the truly oppressive state, we have to look beyond the 17th century and early-modern states. States were simply not strong enough to be able to unilaterally utilize large-scale oppression until later.

Remember, this is the 17th century, not the 19th or 20th. The Totalitarian State is something that only exists in the future, the predecessor we are talking about is weak and clumsy.

There was a reason almost every state in Europe either centralized, was absorbed or faded into insignificance. It simply provides too many advantages at this stage.

Beacause of something called the "grass is greener on the other side". In a de-centralised system, the peasants don't have any experiance of the central rulers, except the central rulers shoving their immediate overlords into line when they were bad.

But they do have experience with local notables and petty tyrants.

Again, the King, and even his beaureaucrats, are far away, Sir John the Landlord is very close indeed.

Whose going to make sure those representatives follow the rules of conduct? And

Their superiors of course, and they would be clerks, notaries, visitations, etc. etc.

Don't get me wrong, the system was often corrupt and innefficient, but compared to what went on before it was a wonder of efficiency, speed, and honesty.

Essentially fleecing is a problem whether your system is centralised or de-centralised.

But from the POV of the state there is a difference: With paid beaureaucrats at least most of the mony probably ends up in the government coffers and can be used for what they were intended for.

Overall, the question is why would a vassal want to lose his cosy estate, in order to fight a war he will probably lose and end up deposed from his cosy estate and probably executed or exiled, and replaced with another?

Because in a de-centralized system, the likelyhood is greater that he can take him on.

Exactly the same thing will happen with your population in the centralised system. Sooner or later someone will tax-fiddle, then you'll need to pay a tax collector to come and get him, which requires more taxes me raised, which means more people will tax-fiddle, which requires more tax collectors to be payed and so on.

The more tax collectors you pay, the more taxes are needed to support them, and so on.

Ah, but there is a crucial difference:

Beaureaucrats, unlike vassals, usually do not have private armies. Things are less bloody and far cheaper that way.

To my probably limited understanding of Polish history, wasn't the main problem that there was dynistic problems in Poland, that there wasn't really a universally recognised Polish King to deliver up funds too.

....

What?