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joak

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If you're playing an economic game, I've always thought decentralization is preferred. Because of trade income, it's a net positive to research speed, and at this point I think the events drift that way anyway (though not as extremely as in EU2).

It's only if you're planning to be fighting a lot that the war exhaustion and couple extra percent in non-trade income matters.

That being said, I usually go centralization for RP reasons anyway.
 

VikingKing

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There is another thing to consider is that they both increase/decrease by 1%

So if the cost for the technology is 4,000X1%= a $40 decrease. This goes across the board on technologies.

Now say you make $100 from production and tax income than 100X2% is 2.

So you have an increaes of $2, however a decrease of $40 per technology.

You can see where decentralization helps those of limited economic means.
 

DrunkenOne

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With a large empire once you hit around 1600 your production income will be similar if not more than your tax income, so the production bonus is always awesome. The tech cost doesnt matter anyways, as with your huge monthly income you will be ahead of time anyways
 

Falconhurst

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Secret Master said:
Centralizing increases tax and production, decreases research speed, and lowers the war exhaustion maximum. Decentralizing reduces income, increases research speed, and increases the war exhaustion maximum.

Yet, if you look at the income increase/decrease and the tech research increase/decrease, it looks like your tech speed is changed the exact amount your income is changed by (i.e. -1% decrease to production and tax revenue, +1% increase to research speed for decentralizing). This results in no net increase or decrease to tech research speed. On the other hand, because of the income increase, centralized governments can mint more money if they have to than decentralized governments can. This makes it easier to build manufactories, which can dramatically increase research speed.

No. A decentralized nation will ALWAYS have FASTER research than a centralized one.

Centralized has higher research costs across the board, higher tax, and higher productivity.

Yet research input depends on many factors:
-Monarch skills
-Advisors
-Events
-Trade income
-Tax income
-Production income

Centralization increases ALL research costs, but increases only two kinds of financial input to research (Tax and production). The effect is to dilute out the benefit of the monarch, advisors, events, and trade income.

Yes you might get a very small increase in your year-end cash with centralization, but this is typically far less than what you LOSE in terms of higher research costs.

So I take exactly the opposite stance as you. Except for a country with little or no trade, centralization is a BAD thing. I can see few reasons -- ever -- for a country to be centralized, and few benefits of centralization compared to the more universal utility of decentralization.
 

unmerged(68610)

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So I take exactly the opposite stance as you. Except for a country with little or no trade, centralization is a BAD thing. I can see few reasons -- ever -- for a country to be centralized, and few benefits of centralization compared to the more universal utility of decentralization.

This ought to be fixed.
 

unmerged(66333)

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What about events? I've got an huge empire to maintain at the moment now and decentralization is the way I've gone because I think I remember reading something in the strategy guide about decentralization make rebellions less likely. Tbh I'm ready to sacrifice almost anything to minimize those damn rebellion events. When 25+ regiments spawn half a world from your nearest army it's no small matter anymore.

Also I'm curious about the other sliders and their possible events.
 

unmerged(4444)

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Cliffracer RIP said:
Like with everthing, it depends who you are and where your income comes from.
But for the great majority of countries, DEcentralizaton is superior... which is weird to say the least. Like someone else pointed out, states that failed to centralize during the period were generally crushed by those who had achieved a high degree of centralization. Centralization should be highly desirable, but nontrivial to achieve (due to events, competing policy priorites, etc.).
 

FAWS

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Falconhurst said:
No. A decentralized nation will ALWAYS have FASTER research than a centralized one.

Let's look at this example:
100 d taxes @ C_D 5
80 d production @ 40% PE (C_D 5)
100 d tech investment from other sources
280 d

110 d taxes @ C_D -5
100 d production @ 50% PE (C_D -5)
100 d tech investment from other sources
310d/1.1= 281.82 effecive d

The centralized nation has a slightly higher research speed

(and 120d higher census taxes)
 

unmerged(68610)

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That's interesting, but could you explain it a little more clearly? What does C_D -5 mean?

Should I be worried that decentralization is over-favoured? IMHO centralization should be on the whole preferable. There are a lot of events that force you to choose between decentralization or a stab hit, so it would be really dumb if decentralization wasn't a problem and you just got more and more decentralized as the game progresses.
 

Nilmerf

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I agree that it depends on how your nation and goals are setup, but I would say centralized is overall superior. By the time you reach mid-game the economy of a decent player will be set up so that the only barrier to researching is the outrageous ahead of time tech penalties. At that point the bonuses of decentralized/innovative/scientific revolution are pointless. I'd rather take the extra income from centralized.
 

unmerged(3921)

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I always go max decentralization. And I have very little trade. Decentralization is DOMINANT. This is true in 99% of the cases.

The only time it is not true is when the amount you are minting is greater than the sum total of your advisor research + monarch research + trade. This can be easily ascertained by noting that decentralization penalizes tax and production while it benefits everything placed in research.

Late in the game with a large country that has no trade, centralization may be better. But for the vast majority of the game decentraliztion is the way to go. It's not even close.
 

Freebot

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Nilmerf said:
I agree that it depends on how your nation and goals are setup, but I would say centralized is overall superior. By the time you reach mid-game the economy of a decent player will be set up so that the only barrier to researching is the outrageous ahead of time tech penalties. At that point the bonuses of decentralized/innovative/scientific revolution are pointless. I'd rather take the extra income from centralized.

By 1650, I've hit the ahead of time penalty for all research categories despite increasing tech costs through centralization and narrowmindedness and having close to zero trade for 160 years. In this game, stability and minting are the limiters to your growth. Of course, the dynamics probably change when you are playing worse than eastern tech group.
 

FAWS

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morse said:
That's interesting, but could you explain it a little more clearly? What does C_D -5 mean?
Position on the dentralization_decentralization slider is -5, ie max cetralization.
Should I be worried that decentralization is over-favoured? IMHO centralization should be on the whole preferable. There are a lot of events that force you to choose between decentralization or a stab hit, so it would be really dumb if decentralization wasn't a problem and you just got more and more decentralized as the game progresses.
You need not be worried. There are cases where decentralization is better (trading powers / miniors that have not run into ahead of time penalities), but usually centralization is preferable.
 

FAWS

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MacroEconomics said:
I always go max decentralization. And I have very little trade. Decentralization is DOMINANT. This is true in 99% of the cases.

The only time it is not true is when the amount you are minting is greater than the sum total of your advisor research + monarch research + trade. This can be easily ascertained by noting that decentralization penalizes tax and production while it benefits everything placed in research.

Late in the game with a large country that has no trade, centralization may be better. But for the vast majority of the game decentraliztion is the way to go. It's not even close.
You are ignoring the census tax, and that an increase of 10% PE when your PE is lower than 100% will increase your production income by more than 10%.
 

unmerged(47151)

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But for the great majority of countries, DEcentralizaton is superior... which is weird to say the least. Like someone else pointed out, states that failed to centralize during the period were generally crushed by those who had achieved a high degree of centralization. Centralization should be highly desirable, but nontrivial to achieve (due to events, competing policy priorites, etc.).

States that failed to centralise were crushed, on what basis do you make that claim?

Correlation does not imply causation, powerful and wealthy regimes are able to centralise more, beacause they have more money to pay for expensive buerocracies.

From the point of view of central goverment, centralisation is desirable not beacause it actually has any overall positive effect on the nation as a whole, but beacause of human lust for power.

Of course that then leads to a pro-centralisation veiw-point, as the central power then uses it's influence to justify it's actions, and the fact that the states which are able to centralise, are already powerful and wealthy, helps create a historical trend.

Certainly there is no rational reason why centralisation is superior to de-centralisation, centralised regimes have to pay for huge non-productive buerocracies to do anything, and the lower orders are generally lacking in initiative, creating a demand for an ever expanding buerocracy.
 

Kenshin

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You should get ahead with C_D = -5 (MAx centralization) but you should also have a lot harder to keep your empire together. Ie GB had to high centralization so those americans rebelled, China and other empires did go for decentralization and thus kept it toghether but with lower newtechrate...

The bonus in dec. for tech research is to compensate for massive ownership of provinses that are assumed. You do not really need to decentralisate a 3-5 province country, nor should you.

Centralization is to max the money output each year.

Advisors&monark impact is also relative higher for small countries.

But the penalty to have a huge empire should be bigger with a centralized gov.
An event with
more then 20 prov 1.5 (50% higher succes for event (if I understand correctly))
C_D -5 1.5

revoltrisk +50%
non_accept culture +50% (Event more revolts for them)
 
Last edited:

Kenshin

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Cliffracer RIP said:
States that failed to centralise were crushed, on what basis do you make that claim?
Spain vs. France
Austria vs. Sweden

Cliffracer RIP said:
Correlation does not imply causation, powerful and wealthy regimes are able to centralise more, beacause they have more money to pay for expensive buerocracies.
But the reason the countries where wealthy and powerful where that they where centralizationed. (Doesn´t look right grammatic... :confused: pleas send the corrected text to me someone :wacko: )

Sweden didnt have that much money, but with an EFFECTIVE bureaucracy they had a lot of manpower and tax, to have an expensive bureaucracy only implies that the cost is higher thatn the benefits, as in a centralizied goverment. (They still have a bureaucracy but not an effective one for the topman)

Cliffracer RIP said:
Certainly there is no rational reason why centralisation is superior to de-centralisation, centralised regimes have to pay for huge non-productive buerocracies to do anything, and the lower orders are generally lacking in initiative, creating a demand for an ever expanding buerocracy.
Only nowdays when corruption halt the process in some countries. In the 1600-century it was either a bureocrazy or a feodal system with a mayor got all the taxes and had to pay for all salarys, lokal garrison, city defence...
Without the centralization of the burocratzy the tax stayed lokal.

Centralization does not equal bureaucracy
 

unmerged(68610)

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States that failed to centralise were crushed, on what basis do you make that claim?

This is a well-worn historical theme.

From:

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761570768_10/Europe.html

The Age of Absolutism
In the aftermath of the Thirty Years’ War, absolutism began to take recognizable form; the secular, centralized state replaced feudal political conceptions and institutions as the instrument of worldly power and influence. Through the efforts of Cardinals Richelieu and Mazarin, France had emerged as the first great modern power. In 1661, when Louis XIV assumed control of the country’s affairs, he understood that new territories could be won only by mobilizing the economic and military resources of the entire nation. The series of wars that he visited upon Europe failed to transform his boldest dreams into realities, but the effort itself would have been impossible without the mercantilist economic policies of Jean-Baptiste Colbert and the creation of a large standing army. The vast military and civil bureaucracy that was the inevitable concomitant of Louis’s unbridled territorial ambition soon began to take on a life of its own, and although the king may have believed that he was the state, he had in fact become its first servant. A similar fate overtook the French aristocracy. As feudal diversity fell victim to bureaucratic rationality, aristocrats were obliged to surrender political power to bureaucratic officers called intendants.

The Centralized State
Perceiving that power was trump, other European monarchs were quick to emulate French absolutism. Tsar Peter the Great devoted his energies to transforming Russia into a major military power. As part of his program of Westernization he created a standing army and a navy, encouraged the study of Western technology, and insisted that nobility be defined by service to the state. Moreover, he took steps to rationalize government administration. These efforts were crowned with success when Russia defeated Sweden in the Great Northern War (1700-1721). Ensconced in their new capital at Saint Petersburg, Peter and his successors could no longer be left out of Europe’s political equation. Nor could Prussia, where the historical pattern was similar to that of most centralizing states: War and the expansionist impulse dictated the concentration of power, the standardization of administrative procedures, and the creation of a modern standing army.
The price to be paid for failing to centralize power was political decline, as manifested by the histories of Poland and the Ottoman Empire. The persistence of aristocratic independence so weakened Poland that it was finally devoured at three separate feasts (1772, 1793, 1795) by its neighbors Austria, Prussia, and Russia. The Turks, once the feared conquerors of southeastern Europe, were unable to prevent their Janissaries and provincial officials from usurping power that had once belonged to the sultan. As a result, the Ottoman Empire was on its way to becoming the “sick man of Europe” before the end of the 18th century.
Out of the wars that ravaged Europe between 1667 and 1721, a state system emerged that by and large survived until 1914. At the beginning of the period, France stood unchallenged as the greatest military power in Europe; by the second decade of the 18th century, however, England, Austria, Russia, and Prussia were all powers to be reckoned with. Instead of a French imperium, Europe was organized as an equilibrial group of great powers. Balance of power became the fundamental principle of European diplomacy and an effective counter to any aggression that had for its aim continental hegemony.
 

unmerged(47151)

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Only nowdays when corruption halt the process in some countries. In the 1600-century it was either a bureocrazy or a feodal system with a mayor got all the taxes and had to pay for all salarys, lokal garrison, city defence...
Without the centralization of the burocratzy the tax stayed lokal.

So, the latter reduces the expenses of the central goverment. The ultimate end result is neutral, except the local mayors know how to use the money to benefit their area and ultimately the nation, while the centralised goverment knows how to benefit the nation and ultimately benefit the areas in it.

The reason that centralisation happens is beacause rulers like to be more powerful and powerful and wealthy states have the means to centralise.

Perceiving that power was trump, other European monarchs were quick to emulate French absolutism. Tsar Peter the Great devoted his energies to transforming Russia into a major military power. As part of his program of Westernization he created a standing army and a navy, encouraged the study of Western technology, and insisted that nobility be defined by service to the state. Moreover, he took steps to rationalize government administration. These efforts were crowned with success when Russia defeated Sweden in the Great Northern War (1700-1721). Ensconced in their new capital at Saint Petersburg, Peter and his successors could no longer be left out of Europe’s political equation. Nor could Prussia, where the historical pattern was similar to that of most centralizing states: War and the expansionist impulse dictated the concentration of power, the standardization of administrative procedures, and the creation of a modern standing army.
The price to be paid for failing to centralize power was political decline, as manifested by the histories of Poland and the Ottoman Empire. The persistence of aristocratic independence so weakened Poland that it was finally devoured at three separate feasts (1772, 1793, 1795) by its neighbors Austria, Prussia, and Russia. The Turks, once the feared conquerors of southeastern Europe, were unable to prevent their Janissaries and provincial officials from usurping power that had once belonged to the sultan. As a result, the Ottoman Empire was on its way to becoming the “sick man of Europe” before the end of the 18th century.
Out of the wars that ravaged Europe between 1667 and 1721, a state system emerged that by and large survived until 1914. At the beginning of the period, France stood unchallenged as the greatest military power in Europe; by the second decade of the 18th century, however, England, Austria, Russia, and Prussia were all powers to be reckoned with. Instead of a French imperium, Europe was organized as an equilibrial group of great powers. Balance of power became the fundamental principle of European diplomacy and an effective counter to any aggression that had for its aim continental hegemony.

Poland fell victim of the fact that it was surrounded by 3 Imperialistic powers who conspired together to ensure it's annihilation. In goverment form, Poland was not particularly centralised or de-centralised to my knowledge. Indeed the reason it fell was partly beacause of the extinction of it's royal line, which isn't a major problem for an extremely de-centralised state.

The Ottoman Empire fell victim of it's sheer size, which placed so much pressure upon the buerocracy of the CENTRALISED Ottoman state, that it became paralysed. And the Ottoman Empire was originally one of the most centralised states in Europe. At least according to Machivelli.

Indeed it was actually it's centralisation that caused the problems the Ottomans had. The nature of things is that centralisation creates fewer positions of power, which are more heavily contested, which causes a greater degree of internal strife.

Conflict between the interests of a old and now defunct and corrupt centralised buerocracy and increasing de-centralisation neccesitated by it's incompetance, is what proved most destuctive in the case of the Ottomans.