Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Central-Eastern Europe(POL,LIT,PRU,LAT,etc)

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
but they acheved to conquer contested lands.
Click to expand...

Eh!? Poland once conquered Hungary... Habsburg style :) (1439-1444). The only reason they lost it was because King Wladyslaw of Lithuania, Poland, and Hungary died in battle against the Ottomans.

So Poland should get Hungary CBs since they historically conquer these contested lands :D? The Habsburgs claimed the area as well.

Poland also held Moldova, should that be another CB?

They once held Moscow... another CB :D.
 
Originally posted by Awomaru
OK - I give up :) So let's remove polish CBs on Prussia and Memel as meaningless or unbalanced from EU2 point of view.

Although I'm sure that from historical point of view they are justified. And, by the way, who aside the Ottomans recognized their claims all over Balkans? or Russians claims on steppes and Lithuania? And so on...
Click to expand...
Yeah, i know i don't know what are you talking about, since it was long time i was there, but if you are concerned with AI expansion towards Prussia, why not give those CB only after Poland get those provinces and Prussia doesn't exist?
 
Originally posted by DarthMaur
Yeah, i know i don't know what are you talking about, since it was long time i was there, but if you are concerned with AI expansion towards Prussia, why not give those CB only after Poland get those provinces and Prussia doesn't exist?
Click to expand...
I still disagree. Yes, I know that it was quite probable for Poles to conquer Prussia, but still, they did not exploit chances which history gave them. I don`t think that they were all dumb and unforeseeing, they must have had a reason(s) to let Ducal Prussia exist. If player wants to be unhistorical, let him face the consequences which XVIc. Poles were afraid of (i.e: not having CBs there). After all Poles never conquered Prussia, nor inherited or gained it by other means till 1945. Personally I doubt that it would be a loyal, core province of Poland.
 
I still disagree. Yes, I know that it was quite probable for Poles to conquer Prussia, but still, they did not exploit chances which history gave them. I don`t think that they were all dumb and unforeseeing, they must have had a reason(s) to let Ducal Prussia exist. If player wants to be unhistorical, let him face the consequences which XVIc. Poles were afraid of (i.e: not having CBs there). After all Poles never conquered Prussia, nor inherited or gained it by other means till 1945. Personally I doubt that it would be a loyal, core province of Poland.
Click to expand...


I believe the situation with Ducal Prussia is similar to that of Translyvania, Moldova, and Wallachia. (I'm speaking in EU2 terms.) All three are usually vassals of the Ottoman Empire, yet the Ottomans receive CB shields on each. If the Ottomans are to recieve cores on Romanian prinicpalities, that throughout the 400 year span of EU2 were historically vassals, then Poland should be treated equally with their vassal Ducal Prussia.

Were the Ottomans afraid of formally annexing Dacia? Perhaps it was just easier administer these provinces indirectly.

Furthermore, I highly doubt areas like Podilia, Wallachia, Moldova, Translyvania, Georgia, and Serbia were highly loyal to the Ottoman Empire. In spite of that, the Ottomans still recieve core CBs on these provinces. Poland should be treated equally by recieving cores on historically conquered but unloyal provinces just like the Ottoman Empire.
 
Furthermore, I highly doubt areas like Podilia, Wallachia, Moldova, Translyvania, Georgia, and Serbia were highly loyal to the Ottoman Empire. In spite of that, the Ottomans still recieve core CBs on these provinces. Poland should be treated equally by recieving cores on historically conquered but unloyal provinces just like the Ottoman Empire.
Click to expand...
My knowledge on Ottoman Empire is a bit limited, but AFAIK european provs of OE were astonishingly loyal to their masters, at least till XVIIc. Turks really did manage to create an universal empire, not as universal as the roman one, but still impressivly cohesive. That`s why they were able to be that big and powerful for a long time. Poland wasn`t universal and certainly wasn`t an empire.

Another thing is that conquest lied in the very nature of OE, it`s elites hadn`t anything against all that wars against christian kingdoms in South-Eastern Europe. I think that is the reason why they have all that CBs even on unconquered lands. In Poland it was usually hard to convince nobles on going on war, polish nobility would probably oppose king who would like to take over Prussia, at least without a really good reason.

However I see that "CBs on Prussia" faction is growing in numbers, I suppose you could win sth. if you will put more pressure on Vilkouak. I`m against those CBs but I can`t say that I completely disagree with you:)
 
My knowledge on Ottoman Empire is a bit limited, but AFAIK european provs of OE were astonishingly loyal to their masters, at least till XVIIc. Turks really did manage to create an universal empire, not as universal as the roman one, but still impressivly cohesive. That`s why they were able to be that big and powerful for a long time. Poland wasn`t universal and certainly wasn`t an empire.
Click to expand...

I'm sure Serbians would disagree with you :D.

Another thing is that conquest lied in the very nature of OE, it`s elites hadn`t anything against all that wars against christian kingdoms in South-Eastern Europe. I think that is the reason why they have all that CBs even on unconquered lands. In Poland it was usually hard to convince nobles on going on war, polish nobility would probably oppose king who would like to take over Prussia, at least without a really good reason.
Click to expand...
Perhaps CB events should be dependent on how high aristocracy is? If Poland's aristocracy slider is low enough, they should be able to curtail the nobles' objections.
 
Actually, Woreczko, you could say P-L was universal empire:D


Let me explain what CB on those territories, gained after conquest would do.


They would make those provinces are less likely to break apart from Poland.

Now, it could be argued if "Prussians" would want to break away or not. Personally, i think they didn't exactly like TO and brothers and preferred Poland. :D

Although, those events giving CBs should only fire until after Brandenburgian inheritance of Prussia.
 
Originally posted by Woreczko
I still disagree. Yes, I know that it was quite probable for Poles to conquer Prussia, but still, they did not exploit chances which history gave them. I don`t think that they were all dumb and unforeseeing, they must have had a reason(s) to let Ducal Prussia exist. If player wants to be unhistorical, let him face the consequences which XVIc. Poles were afraid of (i.e: not having CBs there). After all Poles never conquered Prussia, nor inherited or gained it by other means till 1945. Personally I doubt that it would be a loyal, core province of Poland.
Click to expand...

The main reason was that Ducal Prussia was dirt poor and Polish nobility has absolutely no economic reason in conquering it while there was danger that any actual ruler would claim he rights to the title of prince of Prussia for his own family. So the land would go for the dynasty not for Poland. It was the same issue during First Northern War (1557-1570) when Poland backed the politics of Sigismund August only when the kong admitted that new lands (Inflantes, nowadays Lativia and Estonia) will eb held by Polish and Lithuanian States, not by the King.

Second reason is that Polish-absburgian relations would be severely damaged for a long time but it was not a decisive factor.
 
Originally posted by Fate
Eh!? Poland once conquered Hungary... Habsburg style :) (1439-1444). The only reason they lost it was because King Wladyslaw of Lithuania, Poland, and Hungary died in battle against the Ottomans.

So Poland should get Hungary CBs since they historically conquer these contested lands :D? The Habsburgs claimed the area as well.

Poland also held Moldova, should that be another CB?

They once held Moscow... another CB :D.
Click to expand...

Yes, but Poland never held these terrains for a long time. And it was the union with Hungary, not conquest :).
 
1. After vassalizing of TK, Poland relations with LAT, HAB and PAP should go higher.

2. After vassalizing of TK, Poland relations with LAT, HAB and PAP should not change.

3. Revoltrisk in Prussia should be revoked immediately after Poland declares war.

4. Revoltrisk in Prussia should last until Poland will control one of three contestd provinces: Danzig, Prussia or Memel.


For these voted only Woreczko (on 2 and 4) - I need more to make any agreement.

Additions:

5. Should Poland get shields on Prussia and Memel in 13 Years War?. Answer simply yes or no.
 
After all Poles never conquered Prussia, nor inherited or gained it by other means till 1945. Personally I doubt that it would be a loyal, core province of Poland.
Click to expand...

Personally I'm sure it would. Malbork, Elblag and Warmia were in the same situation as Prussia (in EU2 meaning) - they WERE loyal provinces.


Like I said, they conquered Hungary Habsburg styl
Click to expand...

Fate, it's nice the Westener thinks this way, but in reality Poland never conquered Hungary, Bohemia, Moldovia. There were only close relations without conequences. When Jagiellonians gained the crown of Hungary or Bohemia it didn't mean polish rules in these countries - in any sense. I think it would be against reality to try simulate it in EU2 model. We've got enough problems with Polish-Lithuania relations :).
 
Personally I'm sure it would. Malbork, Elblag and Warmia were in the same situation as Prussia (in EU2 meaning) - they WERE loyal provinces.
Click to expand...
Well, AFAIK Royal Prussia was enjoying a wide and profitable autonomy, that mostly made it loyal. For example when privileges of Gdansk/Danzig were limited by Karnkowski constitutions, the city eagerly revolted when it saw a chance of revoking lost privileges, during Stefan Batory election, what lead to a silly war: PL versus Gdansk. What`s funny, result of this war was roughly a stalemate.

But I realize that this argument has little sense:eek: , `cause i don`t want Poland to lose CB on Danzig province. So I say that for me Poland haven`t struggled for Eastern Prussia enough for justifying it`s CBs there.
Posted by DarthMaur
Let me explain what CB on those territories, gained after conquest would do.


They would make those provinces are less likely to break apart from Poland.

Now, it could be argued if "Prussians" would want to break away or not. Personally, i think they didn't exactly like TO and brothers and preferred Poland.
Click to expand...
IMHO it`s good when Eastern Prussia has better chances of revolting out of Poland/PL. This encourages player (a little, but still) to let them be a vassal, rather than annexing them and we have more chances in general of Prussia forming properly (what is extremely rare whatsoever).
Although, those events giving CBs should only fire until after Brandenburgian inheritance of Prussia.
Click to expand...
You mean that Poland shouldn`t get CBs over Prussia if it conquers them after 1570`s? (I don`t remember exact date when brandenburgian Hohenzollerns where allowed in Prussia)
I would be even more severe if Poland is going to get those CBs. It should be possible only till 1525 and creation of Ducal Prussia. Note that with current setup it would be very hard, because Teutonic and Livonian Orders are merged into one state :)mad: ) and capital is in Prussia province.
5. Should Poland get shields on Prussia and Memel in 13 Years War?. Answer simply yes or no.
Click to expand...
No.

PS: Will Memel change it`s culture to german along with Prussia prov? It would be logical if we consider it just a norht-eastern part of Eastern Prussia I think.
 
So, if nobody protest I will these options:

2. After vassalizing of TK, Poland relations with LAT, HAB and PAP will not change.

4. Revoltrisk in Prussia will last until Poland will control one of three contested provinces: Danzig, Prussia or Memel.

5. Cannot decide about Polish shields on Prussia and Memel cause in this moment cause only Woreczko answered (negatively).
 
Distracting question

In original major_lit there are events regarding wave of protestantism and calvinism. Themselves they don`t seem very historical to me, however I wondered if they could be applied to Poland. Here are my propositions, I`m listing only tweaks regarding religion so far.
Danzig would be protestant and Posen catholic by default

"Wave of Protestantism"
1)Tolerate
- Posen and Wielkopolska turn protestant
- set_flag religious_tolerance
2)Encourage and change state religion
- Posen, Wielkopolska, Malopolska turn protestant
- set_flag religious tolerance
- religion: protestant
3)Crush the heretics
- No changes, only Danzig is protestant

"Wave of Calvinism" triggered by religious tolerance
1) Tolerate
- Wielkopolska and Malopolska turn reformed
2) Change state religion
- Wielkopolska, Malopolska and Podlasia turn reformed
- religion: calvinism
3) Crush it
- clear flag religious_tolerance

"Jesuit King" triggered by rel. tolerance
1) Catholic faith primus inter pares
- Malopolska, Wielkopolska, Podlasia, Masovia turn catholic
- religion: catholic
2) Full tolerance
- Masovia, Podlasia turn catholic
3) Counterreform!
- Posen, Wielkopolska, Malopolska, Podalsia, Masovia, 1 random prov turn catholic
- religion: counterreform
- clear rel. tolerance (this flag could be used for later events also)

This events are meant for my own "one true mod" but I`m not sure if they should be implemented. Of course they could be used also in AGC if you will like them, but I don`t expect them to be implemented right now.

*Fearfully awaiting critics*
:(
 
There are general events. I prefer get them more into historical setup. For example Wielkopolska may turn protestant in event about Rafal Leszczynski. I'd would like to see triggers too.
But as I say there is another way for events than proposed by you. If you want to create general events only than I have no objections :).
 
Good:)
I assume that you agree in general on religious effects of this events. We will discuss it deeper in proper time I suppose. For now I shall use this ones.
Thanks for comment:)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back