Central-Eastern Europe(POL,LIT,PRU,LAT,etc)

[unmerged(2833)]

This thread is meant for discussion about Central-Eastern Europe, which means the land east of Hre, southeast of Scandinavia, north of Black sea, and west of Volga river.

I will try to include all current issues in this post(yeah, sure )

Originally posted by vilkouak
The starting setup for PL - 24.11. If something was omitted, give me a info . This list will be sent tomorrow to Korath. Sections about events are only to inform about future plans and will not be implemented until some events will be created. Exception are completee events that changes cultures.

I – non-event changes:

1. Province Danzig will start with polish culture.

2. Poland starts with polish and ruthenian cultures.

3. Start DP settings for Poland:

Aristocracy 6.
Centralization 5.
Innovativeness 6 (Poland starts with latin group now. So it was lowered).
Mercantilism 7.
Offensive 6.
Land 8.
Quality 5.
Serfdom 6.

4. Start DP settings for Lithuania:

Aristocracy 8.
Centralization 2.
Innovativeness 4.
Mercantilism 6.
Offensive 6.
Land 8.
Quality 4.
Serfdom 7.

5. Capital of Wielkopolska is now Piotrkow Trybunalski.

6. Capital of Podolia is now Kamieniec Podolski.

7. Capital of Krzemienczuk is now Kudak.

8. Capital of Poltava is now Lubny.

9. Capital of Belgorod is now Novgorod Siewierski.

10. Capital of Polotsk is now Polotsk.

11. Capital of Kurland is now Mitava.

12. Capital of Latvia is now Riga (CoT will be located here).

13. Capital of Kursk is now Briansk.

14. Capital of Tula is now Viazma.

15. Capital of Belarus is now Swieciany.

16. Posen, Masovia, Podlasia are plains now.

17. Smolensk is now forest.

18. Podolia and Ucraine base tax is 12 now, manpower is 8.

19. Posen and Wielkopolska base tax set at 10. Manpower without changes.

20. Smolensk base tax is now 6.

21. Posen now produces goods.

22. Malopolska now produces salt.

23. Shield on province 281 for Lithuania and then PL.

24. Province 281 to Lithuania at the start.

25. Poland will lose shield on Pommerania. It can retake shields on two ways - ahistorical option in UoL event and when control some of these provinces up to 1569.

26. Provinces Galizien (Lwow) and Podolia will start orthodox/ruthenian.

27. Lithuania starts with baltic and ruthenian cultures.

28. Poland, Lithuania and PL are given more peaceful ai (15 or even less).

29. There's a list of polish leaders made by Zamojski. If no one has a zeal to create more enhanced list, then this list will be included.

30. Prussia, TO and LO removed from kill lists of Poland, Lithuania, Russia and Sweden. Hostilities will be represented by temporary casus belli given by events.

31. Lithuania starts as a vassal of Poland. This will be break by events in 1429 or 1432 (probably earlier by ai).

32. Starting relations between TO, LO on one side and Poland, Lithuania on the other side set at +50 in every combination.

33. Poland - Brandenburg relations set at +50.

34. Krzemienczuk and Jedisan to GH at the start.

35. Krzemienczuk sunni/tatar.

36. Jedisan sunni/turkish.

37. Poland, Lithuania and PL will be given no kill list (I'm considering Muscovy on the kill list of Lithuania).

38. Province Volynia stants for historical Pripet now.
Terrain swamps. Capital Pinsk. Ruthenian/orthodox. Base tax 4. Manpower 2. Goods - naval supplies.

39. Lithuanian culture removed. Province Lithuania will be given baltic (that culture is simulating all baltic cultures just like scandinavian is simulating swedish, danish, norvegian), all other provinces with lithuanian culture will change to ruthenian.

40. Lithuania is losing shield on Jedisan (but not Krzemienczuk).

41. Poland starts in latin tech group.


II – state and event changes. Future plans.

1. Duchy of Masovia installed as a vassal of Poland with good relations to all neighbours and with peaceful ai (no kill list). Masovia will be not added to any kill list. Shield and monarch list handed out by Kasperus.

2. Prussia removed, Teutonic Order installed in this place (provinces Prussia, Memel, Danzig).
There will be a new set of flags for Duchy and then Kingdom of Prussia (Handed out by Classique).

3. New country Livonian Order installed instead of TO (provinces Latvia, Estland, Kurland).

4. Livonian Order a vassal of TO with royal marriage and in alliance. Relation +170.

5. Prussia created by event of secularization of TO in 1520's.

6. If Livonian Order or TO will annex the other and it will be nonexistent in 16th cen. then event of Secularization of Prussia should happen to Livonian Order and event of Secularization of Livonian Order to TO (trigger should include "own province" subcommand).
In the first case, Prussia will be installed. In the second, TO will last after Secularization of TO event and ceased to exist with second event (so another version of it is needed, based on nonexistence of Livonian Order and ownership of proper provinces by TO).

7. There is possibility that TO will be annihilated before 1520's (not annexed by Livonian Order). If this will happen and Bradenburg will be still in the game an event about creating Prussia will be introduced, triggered by existence of Brandenburg and ownership of Prussia by Poland.

8. Masovia-Poland relations set at +150.

9. Masovia-Lithuania relations set at +100.

10. Masovia-TO relations set at +100.

11. Poland in Union of Lublin (1569) will get baltic if chooses option_a or _b. New ukrainian culture emerge in 1596-1648 period. Poland will have an ahistorical option_c in further events to get it.

12. Syntax of reshaping of TO is: to Duchy of Prussia in 1520's, then inherited (or vassalized) by Brandenburg about 100 years later, then becoming The Kingdom of Prussia on early 18th cen.

13. Secularization of TO event will have three or more options depends on countrysizes of Poland and TO. Condition of sine qua non is protestant TO. In one variation Poland will annex TO (option_a). In other Prussia will have a good chance to become independent (option_a).

14. Events were posted about changes in cultures of contested provinces. Will be included.

15. First set of events concerning times of Jagiello and Vytautas posted here some time ago will be included.

 

[Classique]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
1)Prussia/Teutonic Order setup is not very historical. In fact, Prussia was called Teutonic Order, with capital in Marienburg, Prussia province, and Teutonic was called Sword Brothers. Both orders were closely cooperating, with TO beign the superior one.

Although the capital was in Marienburg, I think that Königsberg should remain the capital of the Prussia province. I don't have enough experience with event coding to comment on the LAT/KUR/PRU tag problems.

2)Cultures issue. At least it's not that bad as in relase version. But there still remain the question of Lithuanian/Baltic culture-Lithuanian is supposed to represent what are todays Belorussians.

In my game I removed lithuanian as a culture and gave the province of Lithuania baltic culture. I think I gave the rest of the provinces with lithuanian culture the ruthenian culture instead, representing belarussians and ukrainians. I then gave the country of LIT baltic and ruthenian state cultures. If LIT is inherited by POL, then POL gets baltic and ruthenian added to polish (and german/polish if we choose that).

And there is also Prussia issue, province which is Baltic now, but shouldn't and should turn German later, if owned by German state.

I have added these commands to the Kingdom of Prussia event.
command = { type = provinceculture which = 289 value = german }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 290 value = german }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 301 value = german }

I start the game off with Danzig being polish, but turning Protestant. This is to symbolize the Polish population of the city, as well as the inclination of Danzig to be with the Polish crown instead of German states. However, the Protestant religion represents the German merchants in the city. When Prussia is initially inherited by Brandenburg, there is still a substantial number of non-Germans in Danzig, Prussia, and Memel in the 17th century. If the Kingdom of Prussia is declared later on, these commands change the culture to German, signifying the gradual Germanization/colonization of those lands.

3)COT issue. The endless debate if it should be in Riga/Kurland or Danzig/Danzig.

I like both cities. In my last game, I manually changed the CoT to Danzig during the middle of the game to signify a shift in trading priorities. However, I do not know if it is historically warranted.

4)Masovia. It was duchy vassalized by Poland, which was finally annexed in 1520s.

Should be easy enough to add- flag and shields have already been made. I have Masovia as a revolter, but have not played with it in the game at all.

2)Merge Lithuanian and Ruthenian cultures, with the exception of Lithuania province, which would be changed into baltic culture. This might warrant giving Lithuania ruthenian as one of the state cultures. Certainly historically accurate thing, but might upset game balance.

I have not noticed Lithuania any particularly stronger or weaker with my cultural changes. Poland with more cultures has been more resistant to Russian attacks, however. I have been playing as Brandenburg and stopped any western advances of Poland.

Change Hinterpommern, Danzig, Prussia, Kustrin and Silesia to new culture, German/Polish, as state culture of German states and Poland (and of course Bohemia)

Would Bohemia having the german/polish culture represent the Czechs in Silesia or the Bohemian crown possessing the province in the beginning of the game? Also, maybe Pommern and Brandenburg/Prussia should be the only German states with this additional culture.

 

[unmerged(9622)]

Originally posted by DarthMaur

1)Prussia/Teutonic Order setup is not very historical. In fact, Prussia was called Teutonic Order, with capital in Marienburg, Prussia province, and Teutonic was called Sword Brothers. Both orders were closely cooperating, with TO beign the superior one.

1)Could be fixed with changing PRU to LAT(teutonic order tag) (provinces Memel, Prussia, Danzig, capital Danzig), and LAT (teutonic order) to user defined country, one of the free tags, to represent Sword Brother Order (provinces Estland, Livland, Kurland, capital?). Events would need to be reworked so there is dissolution of Sword Brothers event, not dissolution of TO, and the event in 1525-vassalization of TO by Poland, and creating Ducal Prussia.

EEP RUS TEAM is working over this problem
and here what we have now: scenarios, events and monarchs as well as leaders reworked - thus in 1419 Grand Campaign we have TO which in 1525 thru event turns into Prussia
and Livonian Order (Swordbrothers) which in 1561 turns into Kurland.


# Livonian order #

country = {
tag = U18
colonialattempts = 0
colonialnation = no
major = no
colonists = 0
cancelledloans = 0
extendedloans = 0
treasury = 200
inflation = 0
merchants = 0.083333
religion = { type = catholic }
culture = { type = german }
diplomacy = {
relation = { tag = LAT value = 180 }

}
knownprovinces = {
231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 263 264 265 266 267 268 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 490 491 492 493 494 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 744 745 746 806 819 820 821 840 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 979 980 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1058 1331 1361 1362 1469
1609 1610 1611 1612 1613
}
ownedprovinces = {
281 282 283 276}
controlledprovinces = {
281 282 283 276}
nationalprovinces = {
281 282 283 276 275 }

city = {
fortress = { level = 1 }
population = 5500
location = 282
capital = yes
}
city = {
fortress = { level = 1 }
population = 6500
location = 276
}
city = {
fortress = { level = 1 }
population = 5500
location = 281
}
city = {
fortress = { level = 1 }
population = 12000
location = 283
}


landunit = {
id = { type = 17111 id = 2 }
name = "Corps of St. Marie"
location = 282
infantry = 10000
cavalry = 8000
artillery = 0
}


diplomats = 1
technology = {
stability = { level = 2 value = 42 }
infra = { level = 1 value = 50 }
trade = { level = 1 value = 50 }
land = { level = 1 value = 0 }
naval = { level = 0 value = 0 }
}
}


# The Teutonic Knights #

country = {
tag = LAT
ai = "Teutons.ai"
colonialattempts = 0
colonialnation = no
major = no
colonists = 0
cancelledloans = 0
extendedloans = 0
treasury = 200
inflation = 0
merchants = 0.083333
religion = { type = catholic }
culture = { type = german }
diplomacy = {
relation = { tag = U18 value = 180 }
relation = { tag = HAB value = 100 }
relation = { tag = BRA value = 100 }
relation = { tag = SAC value = 100 }
relation = { tag = LIT value = -150 }
relation = { tag = POL value = -150 }
}

knownprovinces = {
231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 263 264 265 266 267 268 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 490 491 492 493 494 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 744 745 746 806 819 820 821 840 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 979 980 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1058 1331 1361 1362 1469
1609 1610 1611 1612 1613
}
ownedprovinces = {
289 290 301 }
controlledprovinces = {
289 290 301 }
nationalprovinces = {
289 290 301 }

landunit = {
id = { type = 17111 id = 2 }
name = "Àðìèÿ Ìå÷åíîñöåâ"
location = 289
infantry = 3000
cavalry = 3000
artillery = 0
}
landunit = {
id = { type = 9423 id = 844 }
name = "Êîðïóñ Ñâÿòîé Ìàðèè"
location = 290
infantry = 5000
cavalry = 5000
artillery = 0
}

city = {
fortress = { level = 1 }
population = 7000
location = 301
}
city = {
fortress = { level = 1 }
population = 5500
location = 289
}
city = {
fortress = { level = 1 }
population = 15000
location = 290
capital = yes
}

diplomats = 1
technology = {
stability = { level = 2 value = 42 }
infra = { level = 1 value = 50 }
trade = { level = 1 value = 50 }
land = { level = 1 value = 0 }
naval = { level = 0 value = 0 }
}
}

 

[Pan Zagloba]

I suspect that Lithuania being a vassal of Poland would lead to the reverse problem from that experienced currently - i.e. a reverse union of Lublin.

Can the Union of Lublin event trigger if POL annexes Lithuania in regular game play?

Zagloba

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Zagloba:

Well, the only case i tried it (make Lithuania vassalized to Poland) it ended with Lithuania cancelling the vassalization. I don't believe Poland would be able to diploannex Lithuania without the event, unless it expands very much before. Lithuania is just too big for this to happen.

Khimaira:

Nice work. Are you sure those two states should be separate in EU II, though? I'm not sure myself, vassalization and alliance might be good, but it might be not enough, too.

Classique:

Ah, i just written where TO capital was, Prussia city should be Konigsberg of course.

Danzig gained much on importance in early XVI century, so changing it then would be the best. If we could only delete Kurland...

The problem with Masovia is mainly playbalance. The few times i played with it, it was usually annexed by TO quite quickly.

Yes, Bohemia possesing g/p culture is necessary for them having Silesia. And, seeing as they already have German culture, it won't change anything for them.

Might be indeed better not to exclude some western or southern German states from having g/p culture. I'm not sure which ones, though.

 

[unmerged(9622)]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Khimaira:

Nice work. Are you sure those two states should be separate in EU II, though? I'm not sure myself, vassalization and alliance might be good, but it might be not enough, too.

I guess yep, since Prussia was born as a result of secularization of TO, so it couldn't exist along with TO... And Livonian Order should be there by all means - at least to ground Livonian War

If we have it, then no need to explain why does Kurland appear all of a sudden - just clear that Livonian Order underwent the same thing as TO several decades before and last Livonian GrandMaster Gotthard Ketler becomes duke of Kurland -----

We plan also - monarch for Kurland and leaders for both Livonia and Kurland - forumites on russian site asked us to write several ones

By the way, Riga archbishops will suit as leaders for Livonia, since most of them had sometimes more power than Grossmeisters within Order. And yes, you are right - vassalization and alliance will be a good thing, i believe... - though i think that Livonia was more under control of Denmark and Sweden rather than TO, don't you think?

 

[Classique]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Might be indeed better not to exclude some western or southern German states from having g/p culture. I'm not sure which ones, though.

At the very least Brandenburg and Pomerania should have g/p. Austria could too for Silesia. After looking at a dialect map of Germany, maybe Saxony could also (Ostmitteldeutsch dialect grouping was spoken in the provinces of Sachsen, Erz, Silesia, and possibly Anhalt). If we were to also make a german/czech culture, that could be given to Erz and Sudeten (Bavaria and Austria could have that as a state culture). However, I feel that only Brandenburg, Pomerania, Austria, and possibly Saxony should have g/p as a state culture.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Classique


At the very least Brandenburg and Pomerania should have g/p. Austria could too for Silesia. After looking at a dialect map of Germany, maybe Saxony could also (Ostmitteldeutsch dialect grouping was spoken in the provinces of Sachsen, Erz, Silesia, and possibly Anhalt). If we were to also make a german/czech culture, that could be given to Erz and Sudeten (Bavaria and Austria could have that as a state culture). However, I feel that only Brandenburg, Pomerania, Austria, and possibly Saxony should have g/p as a state culture.

Pommerania for sure, as it also have Polish culture. Dunno if we shouldn't include Mecklemburg, which iirc represents Hanseatic capital. And Magdeburg, too.

The problem with Czech/German is that we would have big problem in Bohemia, because it shared influence of three cultures, not one of whose was really dominant, Polish, Czech and German.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Khimaira


I guess yep, since Prussia was born as a result of secularization of TO, so it couldn't exist along with TO... And Livonian Order should be there by all means - at least to ground Livonian War

If we have it, then no need to explain why does Kurland appear all of a sudden - just clear that Livonian Order underwent the same thing as TO several decades before and last Livonian GrandMaster Gotthard Ketler becomes duke of Kurland -----

We plan also - monarch for Kurland and leaders for both Livonia and Kurland - forumites on russian site asked us to write several ones

By the way, Riga archbishops will suit as leaders for Livonia, since most of them had sometimes more power than Grossmeisters within Order. And yes, you are right - vassalization and alliance will be a good thing, i believe... - though i think that Livonia was more under control of Denmark and Sweden rather than TO, don't you think?

Riga archbishops as leaders of SB? Why not Grand Masters?

And about control. From what i know, TO closely cooperated with SB since midle XIII century, with TO beign "older brother". Their ties got weakened after battle of Grunwald in 1410, which crushed TO might. It also cut off SB from reinforcements from Germany, effectively spelling it's doom.

But they were still cooperating. Though of course, Denmar, Sweden, Russia and Lithuania (Oh, and already secularized Prussia, too)all wanted to get this territory, which was quite important economically. (especially for Denmark and Russia). And one could say it was Denmark who enjoyed the biggest economic leverage there, but i don't think it was political one at all.

And after all, in 1553 Grand Master signed agreement with Russia, effectively becoming their loose vassal (more or less). Though already in 1557 Poland-Lithuania intervened, and GM Furstenberg agreed to ally with PLC against Russia.

Then all the hell broke lose. Ivan IV attacked, capturing Narva, Dorpat and other cities, then Danes joined in, getting isle of Ozylia, then Swedes jumped in, geting souther bay of Finland coast

The Poles and Lithuanias joined the fun, and in 1558, Kettler didn't have any other choice but to become polish vassal in Kurland

As it stands now, the TO event is a bit off historically, but it simulates what hapenned quite well actually. Though i think Ingria should go to Russia in case of Polish-Swedish choice.

 

[St. Leo]

Baltic Lithuania

#Welikia
province = { id = 280 whiteman = yes culture = "russian" }
#Polotsk
province = { id = 281 whiteman = yes culture = "russian" }
#Belarus
province = { id = 284 whiteman = yes culture = "baltic" }
province = { id = 285 whiteman = yes }
province = { id = 286 whiteman = yes }
#Mozyr
province = { id = 287 whiteman = yes culture = "ruthenian" }
#Lithuania
province = { id = 288 whiteman = yes culture = "baltic" }
province = { id = 289 whiteman = yes }
province = { id = 290 whiteman = yes }
province = { id = 291 whiteman = yes }
province = { id = 292 whiteman = yes }
#Volyn
province = { id = 293 whiteman = yes culture = "polish" }

#Poland
country = {
    tag = POL
    culture = { type = "polish" }
}

#Lithuania
country = {
    tag = LIT
    culture = { type = "baltic" type = "ruthenian" }
}

#The Act of Union-'Rzeczpospolita Polska'#
event = {

	id = 3475			#Triggered by LIT3447#
	random = no
	country = POL
	name = "EVENTNAME3475"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3475"
	style = 2

	action_a ={			#Enact the Union#
		name = "ACTIONNAME3475A"
		command = { type = inherit which = LIT }
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		command = { type = add_countryculture which = baltic }
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 279 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 280 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 284 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 285 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 286 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 287 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 288 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 293 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 294 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 295 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 450 }
	}

	action_b ={			#Keep it a loose structure#
		name = "ACTIONNAME3475B"
		command = { type = vassal which = LIT }
		command = { type = relation which = LIT value = 100 }
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = -1 }
	}
}

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Re: Baltic Lithuania

Both Wielika and Polotsk should be Ruthenian. Actually, it's arguable if Smolensk should be Ruthenian or Russian, but i would leave it as it is.

Also, Volyn shouldn't be polish, but Ruthenian. (actually, in 1419, Galizien should be Orthodox Ruthenian, but...)

Which raises the questionn if Ruthenian shouldn't be PLC culture too, with possibility of losing it in 1648. (or 1596)

Also, PLC, POL, and LIT shields are a bit off, but it's another thing.

 

[AlanC9]

Anyone have any advice on how to keep the TO/Prussia (or TO/Sword Brothers, or whatever) independent long enough for Ducal Prussia to form? I see them getting wiped off the map by Poland-Lithuania a lot.

Also, didn't the TO own Danzig in 1419?

 

[unmerged(9622)]

Originally posted by AlanC9
Anyone have any advice on how to keep the TO/Prussia (or TO/Sword Brothers, or whatever) independent long enough for Ducal Prussia to form?

To play for them

 

[Kasperus]

Re: Re: Baltic Lithuania

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Both Wielika and Polotsk should be Ruthenian. Actually, it's arguable if Smolensk should be Ruthenian or Russian, but i would leave it as it is.

Welikia could be baltic, should be russian but surely not ruthenian

 

[Kasperus]

Originally posted by AlanC9
Anyone have any advice on how to keep the TO/Prussia (or TO/Sword Brothers, or whatever) independent long enough for Ducal Prussia to form? I see them getting wiped off the map by Poland-Lithuania a lot.

Also, didn't the TO own Danzig in 1419?

I would try changing Polish ai and eliminating TO and Prussia from the list to-conquer countries - this seems to help, at least in 1.02 - games it did for Russia

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Re: Re: Re: Baltic Lithuania

Originally posted by Kasperus

Welikia could be baltic, should be russian but surely not ruthenian

The city itself lies on the ethnic border, but majority of the provinces is south of it, thus Ruthenian.

And i don't know how it can be considered Baltic. Polots, which lies west of it isn't Baltic either.

Russian/Ruthenian border (stupid and blurry thing at it might be) was more to east and north than it's today. Smolesnk, which is today Russian city (despite it wondered whether to join Belarus when USSR broke up), in XV century was White Rus.

 

[Kasperus]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Baltic Lithuania

Originally posted by DarthMaur

The city itself lies on the ethnic border, but majority of the provinces is south of it, thus Ruthenian.

And i don't know how it can be considered Baltic. Polots, which lies west of it isn't Baltic either.

Russian/Ruthenian border (stupid and blurry thing at it might be) was more to east and north than it's today. Smolesnk, which is today Russian city (despite it wondered whether to join Belarus when USSR broke up), in XV century was White Rus.

but lithuanians are baltic as well and Lithuanian Welikia seems more realistic to me than a ruthenian one. Perhaps the people there in it`s southern part today are byelorussians but afaik ruthenians lived more to the south those days. ruthenian movements wouldn`t start before ~1600 iirc.
Anyway, as i treat the city as relevant, I can only say that Velikje luki is a realy Russian city.

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Baltic Lithuania

Originally posted by Kasperus

but lithuanians are baltic as well and Lithuanian Welikia seems more realistic to me than a ruthenian one. Perhaps the people there in it`s southern part today are byelorussians but afaik ruthenians lived more to the south those days. ruthenian movements wouldn`t start before ~1600 iirc.
Anyway, as i treat the city as relevant, I can only say that Velikje luki is a realy Russian city.

Lithuanian Wielikia? That would be really strange ( i mean real Lithuanian, not the current Lithuanian culture in EU II). Even Latvians lived closer to it.

When i said that south to the city lived Ruthenians, i meant XV century, not today. Today, northern half of this province is inhabited by Russians, southern belongs to Belarus, which is almost completly Russified anyway.

Ruthenians lived more to the south at the Baltic/Slavic ethinc border (Balts lands were bigger in the past). But Russian/Ruthenian border changed in the favor of Russians, not Ruthenians, of course.

What do you mean by Ruthenians movements?

Velikije Luki is Russian city now, but it wasn't clear case in the XV century. And since most of the province wasn't Russian for sure, i don't think it should be made that.

 

[Kasperus]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Baltic Lithuania

Originally posted by DarthMaur

Lithuanian Wielikia? That would be really strange ( i mean real Lithuanian, not the current Lithuanian culture in EU II). Even Latvians lived closer to it.

When i said that south to the city lived Ruthenians, i meant XV century, not today. Today, northern half of this province is inhabited by Russians, southern belongs to Belarus, which is almost completly Russified anyway.

Ruthenians lived more to the south at the Baltic/Slavic ethinc border (Balts lands were bigger in the past). But Russian/Ruthenian border changed in the favor of Russians, not Ruthenians, of course.

What do you mean by Ruthenians movements?

Velikije Luki is Russian city now, but it wasn't clear case in the XV century. And since most of the province wasn't Russian for sure, i don't think it should be made that.

"Welikia" was one of the first places of lithuanian expansion after all, so that`s why i think Lithuanian is more probably than ruthenian in those days, although I still thing it should be russian anyway.
About Ruthenians - the first thing is what is the definition of ruthenians anyway. "Russians" also moved to the north during the time (after Kiev-Russia - would you call it ruthenian or russian? ) Anyway, from what i know "ruthenians" were living in the ukraine but were "pushed" to the north, both by turkish expansion and agricultural changes diuring the 16th century in Poland-Lithuania. I don`t know about "byelorussians" in the 15th century - people in current byelorussia are in my literature usually reffered to as russians anyway.

 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Baltic Lithuania

Originally posted by Kasperus

"Welikia" was one of the first places of lithuanian expansion after all, so that`s why i think Lithuanian is more probably than ruthenian in those days, although I still thing it should be russian anyway.
About Ruthenians - the first thing is what is the definition of ruthenians anyway. "Russians" also moved to the north during the time (after Kiev-Russia - would you call it ruthenian or russian? ) Anyway, from what i know "ruthenians" were living in the ukraine but were "pushed" to the north, both by turkish expansion and agricultural changes diuring the 16th century in Poland-Lithuania. I don`t know about "byelorussians" in the 15th century - people in current byelorussia are in my literature usually reffered to as russians anyway.

Lithuanian expansion was by no means cultural one. Actually, Ruthenian culture pretty qucikly became culture of ruling class of Grand Duchy, to the point it became official language of it. The expansion was also mainly political, not conquest. It certainly has nothing to do with new territories beign Lithuanian in culture.

The definitions of Ruthenians is that they are the southwesternmost of Eastern Slavs. Just like Poles are northeastern of western Slavs, and Czechs and Slovaks are southern group.

We have to remember that during the greatness of Kievan Rus eastern Slavs were much less diversified than 4 centuries later. Just like west Slavs, really. Kievan Rus in fact is just eastern Slavic state, and it's ancestor both to modern Ukraine, Belarus and Russia.

In the late middle ages, and later, Russians moved to the east rather, along Volga basin. The main impact on Ruthenians was Mongol invasion which horribly devastated Kievan Rus heartland. They weren't pushed north by any Turkish invasions, nor by agricultural changes(?). Actually, the area was repopulated, especially from XV century onwards, with population coming from virtually all european countries, though mostly from Poland, northern Grand Duchy, and Muscovy. It's rare case of rural culture assimilating immigrants, as most of the people who came there became Ruthenians.

When i said "White Rus", i referred to people inhabiting what was after 1569 Grand Duchy of Lithuania. They could be considered different both from Russians and Ruthenians, though were more close to the latter. They certainly weren't Russians, who lived in upper Volga basin at the time.