Census tax in latest patch

[Nikolai II]

Originally posted by Languish
... are we seeing the death of the WC player with these latest releases...

The Tax system now absolutely rocks.

Probably not, but at least we can hope for WC to become the provinence of a select few nations, as opposed to something nearly anyone and his dog can accomplish.

 

[unmerged(8351)]

good change...although i wonder what the effect will be on vassals?...i think toning the penalty down from 100% to 50% or 75% of census income would probably be a good idea to help out the poor khanates...besides this just gives one more reason to start in 1492 instead of 1419, which is a more fun and difficult scenario in my opinion anyway

 

[unmerged(9563)]

I don't think we need to worry about the poor Khanates... I think we need to worry about Russia!

Btw, for the first time, I saw Russia conquer all the Khanhates, and colonize most of the Siberian corridor! Also, the Ottomans had expanded historically in the Mid-East and Africa, but that was because my Poland had diplo-annexed the Balkans and they had now where else to go.

 

[unmerged(5161)]

Has anyone run a hands-off game with this new patch yet?

 

[unmerged(7458)]

I'd like to vote for core provinces not requiring Tax Collectors to get Census income. This preserves the feature of requiring some work to cash in on conquered territories, whilst giving all nations some cash to work with.

In terms of realism, what we currently have under the new system is half the feudal arrangement. The nobles keep all the cash, but the central gov't picks up the tab for the armies. It also makes the 1419 starting armies very unsustainable at a period when much of the world is embroiled in wars. The rationale for allowing core provinces to get Census income w/o tax collectors could be that these provinces are more loyal, with some rudimentary infra already in place.

In terms of game play, many of the countries will lose the economic setup and whatever income vs expense balance they previously had at the start of play. They will have to forgo the goals they had at 1419 before and have to spend several decades building their economy from scratch, when historically they had an economy going already. I concur with ryoken69 that spending 50 years in this state would be very dull.

Cheers,

Stilicho

 

[Duuk]

Since TC are such a vital economic neccessity now, could we reduce the time involved to 6 months to promote them? This would insure that the first year isn't spent suffering for most players in the 1419 scenario.

Duuk

 

[Woreczko]

Originally posted by Twoflower
Also crippling the Khanates that way is no bad thing. One reason for the demise of especially the Golden Horde was its inefficient ruling system; they officially controlled lots of lands, but never established a real, tax-collecting government.

Taht is true they never established an efficient tax collecting system and that their economy was primitive in general. The khanates were historicaly very aggresive, they subsequently plundered lands of richer nations around, and latest changes encourage this - that is also good thing.
But... But I fear (haven`t tested that) that now khanates will have serious problems in fielding any armies, especially when doomed with inflation. No census tax means for them almost 50% lower income during peace. This may sentence them to a worthless vegetation, while historically they were able to cause much trouble to Lithuania, Poland or Muscovy for example.

Besides, in 1419 scenario, which I like, there is a huge difference between having tax collectors or not. As have been stated above tax collector means an improvement in taxcollecting, not an introduction of comletely new economic tool. That`s why 50% penalty seems reasonable to me. Whether province is national or not shouldn`t matter IMHO, cultural and religious penalties are doing this job.

 

[Languish]

Played england up to 1526 so far... the tax system really makes you think... got TC's everywhere now... makes a shed load of difference.... investing in trade and infra alot more now as well.

 

[unmerged(5161)]

A shed load eh? Interesting way to curse. Just make it look like you made a typo

 

[Zagys]

Originally posted by KwangTiger
but that was because my Poland had diplo-annexed the Balkans and they had now where else to go.

That brings up an interesting point. How have recent changes affected the attractiveness of diplo-annexation compared to military conquest? Does it make any sense to make conquest more and more difficult while it's still just as easy as ever to just "buy" other countries?

The important question: Does diplo-annexation under the new system cause the loss of tax collectors in the newly annexed provinces?

 

[Zagys]

Also, why are so many people afraid of the Khanates becoming weaker? Aren't they supposed to lose to Russia?

 

[L G]

Yes, you lose taxcollectors when you diploannex a nation. Happened to Brittany when i diploed them as France, had to build all new ones.

 

[Zagys]

Originally posted by L G
Yes, you lose taxcollectors when you diploannex a nation. Happened to Brittany when i diploed them as France, had to build all new ones.

Are you sure that Brittany had them in the first place?

 

[unmerged(14659)]

Since applying the patch, as Austria, I've inherited about 8 provinces, and diploannexed another 5. I had to build a taxcollector in each one. Now, it's possible I just lucked out and was finding the countries too lackluster to build TCs, but I think it's safe to say any time provinces change hands the TCs are lost.

 

[Woreczko]

Originally posted by Zagys
Also, why are so many people afraid of the Khanates becoming weaker? Aren't they supposed to lose to Russia?

If Russia goes for them after 1500`, they will inevitably lose to Russia due to their exotic or china techgroup.

I put the khanates only as an example, this problem (inability to do anything before building TCs) may be true for other poor, primitive countries. Not anybody reaches infra 1 in a few months.

 

[unmerged(3464)]

I am totally against the idea of only being able to recieve cenus taxes if a tax collecter is present. This is something that totally changes the game in my opinion. There are alot of changes being made in these beta patches and I hope not all are implemented in a 1.07. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the work but instead of all these changes and lots of public beta testing I just want a 1.06 where all the DP sliders work properly.

 

[Velociryx]

I have not played the latest beta patch yet, but I'm all for the idea of disallowing annual tax revenues in provinces without TC's (doesn't alter my style of play a bit, since I am already in the habit of building them everywhere as soon as I am able to).

Another poster made the comment that it makes it difficult to maintain huge standing armies, and I would say that this is both a good thing, and historic. Maintaining huge standing armies *should* be difficult, and for those countries that begin with large forces, it poses an interesting (and immediate) in-game decision. How do you want to play it? Disband that army to get yourself down to an operational limit, or declare an early war, and sacrifice your "troop cushion" for early gains, hoping like hades that you can make the money last long enough to make solid gains? (or, spend the coin you've got, attack anyway, and eat an early bankrupcy, along with the nasty side effects that go with it?). The only problem I can see is that the early bankrupcy actually becomes a halfway attractive option, which IS ahistoric. (If I know there's no way in HELL I can support the troops I've got, and I have sufficient tech to build TC's, my inclination would be to DoW on day one of the GC and use my army to get me some quick "sucker punch" gains, take out max loans and use the money to build TC's everywhere, let the economy tank (hopefully after a lightning war that reduces my army for me, and nets me another 3-6 provinces), then kick back for five years and let the effects wear off.

-=Vel=-

 

[Zagys]

Am I correct in assuming that monthly tax income is completely unaffected by the new feature? What's the problem then, yearly census taxes make up less than half of your total yearly income.

Want 0% inflation? Too bad!

 

[unmerged(9563)]

heh, inflation and the fact that a lot of those monthly taxes go into investments of tech.

I can't imagine playing a country like the Timurids now, because even though my desire to make India Purple might be high, the 0 taxes i'll get and the 50 wars i'll get won't be.

 

[unmerged(5161)]

Another problem I have noticed is that the AI keeps very very little money on hand. This means that it is much harder for AI vs AI wars to be resolved with no land changing hands, since they will keep asking each other for a little cash. If they accept the deal, they have to take out a loan and head down the road to bankruptcy. If they keep fighting, over time the little one-prov minors get eaten up one by one, plus other nastier side effects.