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Jesus Maur, are you trying to kill me?
I know about the monthly income already. Got it. I'm not freaking out. Really.
I stand by my suggestions. I think they are more conservative changes than the one implemented in the latest beta. But even if my arguements are completely ignored, trivialized or downplayed, it won't matter to me much. I would rather play a perfectionist game anyhow, with tax collectors in every darned province, and I know that I'll survive the first 10 years in most cases.
Edit: Elaborating.
Edit edit: Using the word 'anyhow' too much. Must get thesaurus.
Last edited:
Anyhow....Originally posted by Medicine Man
Jesus Maur, are you trying to kill me?
I know about the monthly income already. Got it. I'm not freaking out. Really.
I stand by my suggestions. I think they are more conservative changes than the one implemented in the latest beta. But even if my arguements are completely ignored, trivialized or downplayed, it won't matter to me much. I would rather play a perfectionist game anyhow, with tax collectors in every darned province, and I know that I'll survive the first 10 years in most cases.
Edit: Elaborating.
Edit edit: Using the word 'anyhow' too much. Must get thesaurus.
*looks at his post*
You know? I must have missed it
Anyhow, i didn't actually disagreed with anything, just pointed that you get 1/12 of province tax value every month
Jesus Maur..... hmmm, sounds nice
This idea is bad. VERY VERY VERY VERY BAD!!!!!
It makes it so countries without a lot of startup money have to inflate their economies like balloons in order to build just the tax collectors; not to mention armies. I just played where, after an initial war against the Teutonic Order (mainly to unload my massive army in a useful way, as opposed to disbanding it), I could barely maintain a 10k army. I only had 100 starting cash, which I used to build 2 tax collectors. But then I had to start inflating. Since I built the tax collectors on Jan 1st, I didnt get the benefits until the beginning of the 3rd year. Which means that until that point, if I wanted any cash I had to draw it out of my economy and get inflation.
However, in a few years I had recovered. Lithuania, however, had not. I ripped through them like a knife through butter. They could barely keep a 10k army together and I was hitting them with 40k. I was able to take half of Lithuania with no problem. Then came the problems. I didnt have hardly any money (despite expansion) but I did have a lot of enemies. Then the BB wars started. Oh, it was quite brutal. My vassals were cancelling and DOWing me. Nasty stuff.
The gifts the AI tosses around end up being extremely hard on the player. A 20k army for a one-prov minor used to be a pain in the arse, but no big deal. Now, that army is bigger than yours. It is hard to keep a decent army in the field without massive inflation, much less lose soldiers fighting revolts.
With this situation, I see very little chance for the AI working out right. Everyone will be running inflated economies just to keep up with their neighbors. It benefits major powers much more than ever before. The AI, who had problems with inflation before, is just pathetic.
While this may make the game more "historically accurate", it has made it much less fun. Having a crappy economy for 50 years is just annoying and boring.
It makes it so countries without a lot of startup money have to inflate their economies like balloons in order to build just the tax collectors; not to mention armies. I just played where, after an initial war against the Teutonic Order (mainly to unload my massive army in a useful way, as opposed to disbanding it), I could barely maintain a 10k army. I only had 100 starting cash, which I used to build 2 tax collectors. But then I had to start inflating. Since I built the tax collectors on Jan 1st, I didnt get the benefits until the beginning of the 3rd year. Which means that until that point, if I wanted any cash I had to draw it out of my economy and get inflation.
However, in a few years I had recovered. Lithuania, however, had not. I ripped through them like a knife through butter. They could barely keep a 10k army together and I was hitting them with 40k. I was able to take half of Lithuania with no problem. Then came the problems. I didnt have hardly any money (despite expansion) but I did have a lot of enemies. Then the BB wars started. Oh, it was quite brutal. My vassals were cancelling and DOWing me. Nasty stuff.
The gifts the AI tosses around end up being extremely hard on the player. A 20k army for a one-prov minor used to be a pain in the arse, but no big deal. Now, that army is bigger than yours. It is hard to keep a decent army in the field without massive inflation, much less lose soldiers fighting revolts.
With this situation, I see very little chance for the AI working out right. Everyone will be running inflated economies just to keep up with their neighbors. It benefits major powers much more than ever before. The AI, who had problems with inflation before, is just pathetic.
While this may make the game more "historically accurate", it has made it much less fun. Having a crappy economy for 50 years is just annoying and boring.
Don't agree - playing Scotland I believe that the new rules HELP minors. England had less income in a long war that I did as it did not build tax collectors immediately (Johan - you need to make this a higher priority for AI). I will always trade 5% inflation to win a war versus England as it allows me to grab Ireland after and in this case Meath and Northumberland as well. Plus I can get 100-200 ducats in the peace settlements which will finance my tax collectors
I do think that zero census taxes is a bit much. 50% sounds better.
I do think that zero census taxes is a bit much. 50% sounds better.
Its a function of a player versus AI. It's always been possible - nothing to do with this patch. I will win 80% against England in the first war.
My point was that as England gets no tax collectors at start and because she is at war she only spends the limited monthly cash on troops plus she gets the free cash the AI always gets during wars versus player. Once this free cash runs out she doesn't raise the income slider so Scotland can out build her (or at least keep pace)
Previously England still got a reasonable income from its province to overwhelm Scotland (occasionally). With the new rules I think I can almost guarantee a win within three years at 1% inflation per year.
My point was that as England gets no tax collectors at start and because she is at war she only spends the limited monthly cash on troops plus she gets the free cash the AI always gets during wars versus player. Once this free cash runs out she doesn't raise the income slider so Scotland can out build her (or at least keep pace)
Previously England still got a reasonable income from its province to overwhelm Scotland (occasionally). With the new rules I think I can almost guarantee a win within three years at 1% inflation per year.
I think that all countries (save native nations) should start with tax collectors in all their provinces. That would fix the beginning problems quite well.
As for revolters, the way I read it the tax collectors / legal counsels are only removed when lost in a peace deal. It would be good if Johan could clarify if the removal occurs when a province's ownership changes or as soon as the state loses control over it (i.e. when a siege succeeds or troops march into an unprotected province).
Since giving all non-pagans tax collectors or infra 1 would mean a lot of work and probably wouldn`t be especially historical, I support this suggestion:
I haven`t made any test with latest patch but I strongly fear that khanates are terribly crippled by now. Many low tax provs means that they would have to pay a lot just for about 20 census tax. On the other hand they really need this money. Not to mention that it would take some time to get to infra 1.
I think this is an absolutely excellent suggestion that solves the nasty side effect problems like starting the game at war and revolter nations while still helping to slow down the warmongering and increase the usefulness of tax collectors (and of course I figure 50% is an arbitrary number, could easily be less). Just wanted to show my love for your creative idea
That being said.. I love the base idea. I don't worry at all about the minors, they always seem to have tcs right away. I do worry about the multicultured empires though... can't wait to see how Turkey handles this.
One question: Will the +3 RR still be a sideeffect after this change? If so, I think we need some tweaking..
Seems like a great patch though.
Seems like a great patch though.
why wld this be ahistorical? was taxation invented in 1419? were tax collectors invented in 1419? did the first infrastructural buildings possessing tax collection data appear in 1419? i mean, all the early writing found in anatolia has to do w/ counting goods -- not poetry. most of the provinces represented in eu2 had had tax collecting schemes in them for well over 1000 years. a majority of the countries represented had them on and off for over 2000 years. some had had them for over 4000 years (china, the nile countries, the tigris-euphrates countries, the ganges countries.) w/o taxes you have no state. taxation is one of the basic building blocks of states.
indeed, most of the pagan countries shld have tax collectors. certainly the aztecs, incas & beninese shld. in fact, only those pagan "nations" that cld hardly be called states in the time period covered wld not have had tax collectors.
there are only two things certain in life & only one is always man-made.
i agree that it makes a big change in the game & perhaps it's too much work & i will not argue w/ that. if folks think it makes the game less fun, then by all means, it shld be dropped. but it certainly is in no way ahistorical.
*rant over*
2, I could live with, but I don't like suggestions 1 and 3. I really can't see any reasons why an acknowledged claim on a province would cause increased tax income from that province. It is not realistic for this to happen.
I think the change is 100% accurate as, historically, taxes were from goods until tax-collecting mechanisms were in place. It was these tax-collecting mechanisms that allowed states to get taxes out of the ordinary people, and that is what census taxes represent.
Eh, you still get taxes monthly, just not census (annual). With this last change Tax Collectors now symbolize increased control by the state over taxes, especially more taxes going straight to the crown, as opposed to going to the noblemen.
Some pagans might have this, and some not. Same for all of the world.
I agree upon the much work though, especially since I think it'll work out anyway, but if people want to research upon early 15th century taxpaying then by all means go ahead
I personally love the change as it is, however the people complaining are right - it is impossible to maintain huge armies without tax collectors now. This would finally give a good reason to cut almost ALL starting armies in the 1419 and 1492 down, maybe even removing them. There were no standing armies until the renaissance (and in most countries even later) because they were impossible to maintain, and it would be just awesome if this could be witnessed in EU2.
Also crippling the Khanates that way is no bad thing. One reason for the demise of especially the Golden Horde was its inefficient ruling system; they officially controlled lots of lands, but never established a real, tax-collecting government.
Also crippling the Khanates that way is no bad thing. One reason for the demise of especially the Golden Horde was its inefficient ruling system; they officially controlled lots of lands, but never established a real, tax-collecting government.
I think the new system is an improvement, but I would like to see one tweak: make provinces without tax collectors lower maintenance costs. This would simulate feudal armies better and allow low infra nations to maintain an army.
i, for one, like this idea.
i think, perhaps for eu3, that feudal armies shld cost very little to build & something medium to maintain. at each higher level of land and naval tech, the cost of building armies shld increase exponentially as the cost of equipping them got higher & the responsibility for raising them gravitated to the central gov't b/c only the central gov't & a few great men had the capital to actually equip them. the maintenance shld remain tied to inflation & prob increase as distance from owned provinces increases.
Yes the TC change is very nice and most welcome. Having played a bit with it last night and today in the Tsunami MP game, I don't see any real problems with it, and it has the added benefit of helping the traditional trading nations too, as most players will only build TC's in their core provinces and live off the trade/production income of their colonies. Well that's a supposition on my part but I suspect that will become the norm.
The inflation change though I think needs a bit more work doing to it, as a large nation like Russia is going to have considerable difficulty to say the least in raising governors in half let alone all of her provinces. Spain is another empire who'll have this sort of problem, though she is usually much richer so won't feel it to the same extent, though on the flip side her inflation is likely to be a heck of a lot higher than Russia's too and might never reach zero again.
Perhaps each governor should lower inflation by a one off 0.1% as well as the annual reduction.
The inflation change though I think needs a bit more work doing to it, as a large nation like Russia is going to have considerable difficulty to say the least in raising governors in half let alone all of her provinces. Spain is another empire who'll have this sort of problem, though she is usually much richer so won't feel it to the same extent, though on the flip side her inflation is likely to be a heck of a lot higher than Russia's too and might never reach zero again
.Perhaps each governor should lower inflation by a one off 0.1% as well as the annual reduction.
... are we seeing the death of the WC player with these latest releases...
The Tax system now absolutely rocks.
The Tax system now absolutely rocks.