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Does it mean that I will get no money on 1st January without tax collectors???!!! Or am I missing something?-
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Does it mean that I will get no money on 1st January without tax collectors???!!! Or am I missing something?
Province needs a tax collector in it to bring its tax value in january to treasury, so if you have no tax collectors at all, no money in januaryOriginally posted by Woreczko
!!!!
This, plus the mayor thing, will make inflation a giant problem especially in the early game. Also it will make tech progress much slower for early-game warmongers, since now you need to withdraw cash from tech money to pay for wars.
There was complaints about Tax Collectors being useless and that you should be able to remove them.
I guess this was the solution.. mighty impressive
Should solve some of all the complaints about 'unhistorically large amounts of cash', especially if coupled with death of Taxmen and Lawmen when province changes ownership (anyone see any such mention?)
I guess this was the solution.. mighty impressive
Should solve some of all the complaints about 'unhistorically large amounts of cash', especially if coupled with death of Taxmen and Lawmen when province changes ownership (anyone see any such mention?)
Originally posted by Nikolai II
There was complaints about Tax Collectors being useless and that you should be able to remove them.
I guess this was the solution.. mighty impressive
Should solve some of all the complaints about 'unhistorically large amounts of cash', especially if coupled with death of Taxmen and Lawmen when province changes ownership (anyone see any such mention?)
or was that not what you asked?
After much gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair, I've decided that I like the new taxation system. Not getting census taxes from provinces that have no tax collector makes it just a little bit more difficult to profit from warmongering. Non-culture, non-core provinces are now going to be revolt bait for the rapacious warmonger bent on conquest. Build taxmen or get nothing from your new conquests. I love it. Any change that makes it more difficult to for the player to expand beyond the historical boundaries of his nation is a much needed enhancement.
But... and you knew there was a 'but' coming here... I'm a little concerned about what this change will do to the nations at the start of the grand campaign.
As Peter has pointed out, most nations are going to have very little trade or production revenue at the start of the game. This low income, coupled with the often too-large standing armies, may make it very difficult for nations (AI and human) to even build their starting economy. Particularily nations that start the grand campaign in wars.
While it isn't going to be much of a problem researching infra 1, and most human players will manage to build tax collectors one way or another, I'd still like to suggest a few small changes:
One of the following:
1) You always get census taxes from core provinces you control
2) You get 50% of your census taxes without a tax collector
-- or better yet, combo the two of them --
3) You always get 50% of your census taxes from core provinces you control
I hope Johan and company will consider one of these modifications, I personally like number 3 the most. I also am looking forward to some detailed explanation of how the new deflation system actually works.
Cheers.
PS: I clipped this from the thread on inflation. I think it bears repeating.
But... and you knew there was a 'but' coming here... I'm a little concerned about what this change will do to the nations at the start of the grand campaign.
As Peter has pointed out, most nations are going to have very little trade or production revenue at the start of the game. This low income, coupled with the often too-large standing armies, may make it very difficult for nations (AI and human) to even build their starting economy. Particularily nations that start the grand campaign in wars.
While it isn't going to be much of a problem researching infra 1, and most human players will manage to build tax collectors one way or another, I'd still like to suggest a few small changes:
One of the following:
1) You always get census taxes from core provinces you control
2) You get 50% of your census taxes without a tax collector
-- or better yet, combo the two of them --
3) You always get 50% of your census taxes from core provinces you control
I hope Johan and company will consider one of these modifications, I personally like number 3 the most. I also am looking forward to some detailed explanation of how the new deflation system actually works.
Cheers.
PS: I clipped this from the thread on inflation. I think it bears repeating.
I like #3 medicine man......
How will a revolter nations ever get money? They dont start with any and shouldn't the tax man die when the revolt happens.
How will a revolter nations ever get money? They dont start with any and shouldn't the tax man die when the revolt happens.
I think we may have found a bit of common ground here.
However, i'd like to really play test it quite a bit the way it is, before I say I support this 100%. Now its off to my Poland thread to talk about the effect this will have on Polish provinces in the ukraine... different culture... different religion.. add a tax collector... instant meltdown. So maybe your core idea could really be helpfull here... but even then, that only effects Kiev... Anyway, really good suggestions MM.
Heh. I didn't even think of that, Imperial Army. Interesting.
As it stands, you can probably get more money by going to war and pillaging someone else's provinces rather than trying to administer your own.
Maybe I'll try pillaging England as Denmark/Norway... Vikings rule!
I'll see how much money it brings me.
oh yeah, and I guess revolter nations do get screwed.
(But the AI annexed them half the time, anyway).
I'll see how much money it brings me.
oh yeah, and I guess revolter nations do get screwed.
(But the AI annexed them half the time, anyway).
Originally posted by N Katsyev
I think we may have found a bit of common ground here.
I suppose I should be buying stocks in underworld icebergs now. We ended up agreeing on something.
Seriously, I think we agreed on 85% of what was in the Poland thread as well -- it was just the other 15% that was generating all of the fuss.
Speaking of the taxation system, you will really need to put in tax collectors everywhere, regardless of culture and religion. Your ruthenian provinces will be giving you -30% income due to culture, -30% due to religion (some of them) and no taxation without collectors. You'd be better off not having those ruthenian provinces at all.
I don't mind because it makes subjugating your neighbors just a little less attractive, but it is going to have a large effect on gameplay.
Cheers.
Edit: Clarity.
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i'm against the addition in terms of making warmongering less income producing. i think you shld be able to loot provinces for very large additions to your economy at a bit of an inflation hit. but, of course, i've been arguing that in another thread for a while.
on the other hand, i really like this addition in the sense that you shldn't get tax income from provinces where you don't have a tax collecting apparatus. simply doesn't make sense for you to do so.
there is the problem of the early economy though. i know it wld be a rather large change, but i think that this shld be solved in the following way:
a) all nations excepting a very few pagan ones have infra 1 at the start of the game.
b) all nations w/ infra 1 at the start of the game start w/ tax collectors in their core provinces.
after all, there are very few "nations" that don't have tax collectors historically when this game begins. most of those that don't are represented as "natives". in fact, a large percentage of countries in the game have had tax collectors at certain times & some almost continuously for over 2000 years.
i did just have a lot of fun playing france in eep 1.3 gc w/ the latest patch trying to beat the english etc. w/o any good leaders & no money coming into my economy. ended up winning -- hard not to against the ai -- but there were some tight squeezes there & if it's any indication, have - 30 victory points for my efforts and no new provinces in france from england. (did manage to get artois out of burgundy, though.)
strange about the ai & annexation, though. even though my armies hadn't been destroyed and neither had the orleans army, they accepted an annexation proposal by the english. much frustration rose to the surface at that moment.
was a very fun first 7 years.
on the other hand, i really like this addition in the sense that you shldn't get tax income from provinces where you don't have a tax collecting apparatus. simply doesn't make sense for you to do so.
there is the problem of the early economy though. i know it wld be a rather large change, but i think that this shld be solved in the following way:
a) all nations excepting a very few pagan ones have infra 1 at the start of the game.
b) all nations w/ infra 1 at the start of the game start w/ tax collectors in their core provinces.
after all, there are very few "nations" that don't have tax collectors historically when this game begins. most of those that don't are represented as "natives". in fact, a large percentage of countries in the game have had tax collectors at certain times & some almost continuously for over 2000 years.
i did just have a lot of fun playing france in eep 1.3 gc w/ the latest patch trying to beat the english etc. w/o any good leaders & no money coming into my economy. ended up winning -- hard not to against the ai -- but there were some tight squeezes there & if it's any indication, have - 30 victory points for my efforts and no new provinces in france from england. (did manage to get artois out of burgundy, though.)
strange about the ai & annexation, though. even though my armies hadn't been destroyed and neither had the orleans army, they accepted an annexation proposal by the english. much frustration rose to the surface at that moment.
was a very fun first 7 years.
Hello?
Just wanted to point out that census is only the january 1st cash income.
Everyone (and his dog) still gets monthly incomes, from taxes, trade and production, that goes (via the budget sliders) into treasury or research.
Up the money slider and anyone should get cash, even if some need to lower maintanance costs first.
Just wanted to point out that census is only the january 1st cash income.
Everyone (and his dog) still gets monthly incomes, from taxes, trade and production, that goes (via the budget sliders) into treasury or research.
Up the money slider and anyone should get cash, even if some need to lower maintanance costs first.
Yes Nikolai, and if you had carefully read my post you would know that I realize that the census tax is only one component of a nation's income. But for most nations at the start of the grand campaign, trade and production income are tiny -- very tiny. In many cases, the monthy income is not enough to support their starting armies even at half pay while minting coins like mad.
Even given these limitations, I know that a human player can cope. Nevertheless, I am worried about what will happen to the balance between large and small AI nations. Nations that can afford to place their tax collectors briskly will now benefit from a much faster growing economy than their smaller counterparts. I'm quite afraid that the gap between majors and minors will be made cavernous in the first 20 years of play. Or -- putting it another way -- I think that 4 years into the game a 10-province France is going to be more than 5 times more powerful than a 2-province Savoy; assuming that both the AI and Savoy are AI-controlled.
Tying tax income directly to the infrastructure is a good idea but one that should be modified with the first 20 years of the game in mind.
Even given these limitations, I know that a human player can cope. Nevertheless, I am worried about what will happen to the balance between large and small AI nations. Nations that can afford to place their tax collectors briskly will now benefit from a much faster growing economy than their smaller counterparts. I'm quite afraid that the gap between majors and minors will be made cavernous in the first 20 years of play. Or -- putting it another way -- I think that 4 years into the game a 10-province France is going to be more than 5 times more powerful than a 2-province Savoy; assuming that both the AI and Savoy are AI-controlled.
Tying tax income directly to the infrastructure is a good idea but one that should be modified with the first 20 years of the game in mind.
On the other hand, small Latin and indeed Orthodox countries almost always have enough money to place tax collectors just about immediately. And the AI almost always does this. So I do not think this will hurt small countries too much.
Originally posted by RedPhoenix
France is supposed to be 5 times more powerfull though
I said *more* than 5 times more powerful, Red, but this is all speculation anyhow. Only beta testing will tell the true tale. I just think it's a little bizzare that there is going to be such a dramatic change in income from one little peice of infrastructure. I hope that the developer(s) revisit this new rule before the open beta ends.