Censoring of portrait and nuclear power

[DGDNA]

Hey! just edited my post above for clearification. we see hitler every day in documentaries here. But aince this is the caregory of history and teaching, it is allowed. We also have a movie "er ist wieder da", which is based on a book, where hitler awakens in todays germany. But this is allowed too, since films are art in germany. We have a very broad definition of art from the Bundesverfassungsgericht (BVerfG), but still games are not includable there...

Actually, there is nothing in german law, which is undisputed. And there are voices, to open up the laws. But jurisdiction is still very clear and strict on this matter...

I agree partly. Yes, the use of propaganda material (thats what StGB §86 is about) is allowed in art, etc. But there is a very open debate if some games are of educational or even art character. If you look at the last two games which where forbidden (KZ Manager and Wolfenstein IIRC) both had none of this. HOI has at least a partly educational or documentary character - e.g. look at all these events which show "the path to the war" and beyond.

Edit: For Hitlers portrait the jurisdiction can be found here

BGHSt 25, 133, 135
BGHSt 28, 394, 396

(The BGHSt means BGH Rechtsprechung in Strafsachen, The first number is the book number, the second number the first page of the verdict and the last number is, where you find it)

For another point of view on this matter, see Nomos Kommentar zum Strafrecht, paragraph 86 ziff. 11, Paeffgen (author of the paragraph)

The cases you quoted were all in a context with swastikas, old party-posters etc.. Thats clearly propaganda material, so its forbidden. But is really a portray of a former legally announced chancellor propaganda material? If its in a poster of the NSDAP, clearly:yes. But in a game? We do not talk about if it is together with clearly forbidden symbols (SS-runes of swastikas) but just as what he was: the chancellor.

Unfortunately i don't have access to the Kommentar ( 2000+ pages IIRC) at the moment so I can not evaluate this part.

Personally, I don't care if his portait is in the game since when I am gaming I don't look at these things, just at information and game mechanisms. But if some need it for "immersion" I don't care.

 

[Septawn]

I don't like anime...

Please don't kill me

You're already dead inside.

 

[Phibs]

LOL...i read your post and understood exactly what you meant. The jurisdiction is outdated??? I am pretty happy, that we got these laws in Germany, since still some people tend to forget or don't know, what actually happened in my country from 1933 to 1945. You can see youtube videos, where younger people in germany think, that hitler is our actual chancellor...

Sure, sure. Having these images in all media but one (to not even speak of the rabbit hole that is the internet) will make us safe and keep our youth from .... something something fascism.
It's not like ignorance of WW2 is the case because history as a school subject has been gutted into nigh nonexistence and has to be addressed from that side of things...
How keeping the olde A to the H out of vidya games (in this instance in a clear historical setting no less) will in any way help the situation, shall remain your secret.

 

[Voigt]

ahhh.. i would be very careful with that. Steam has VPN usage listed as a bannable offense.

999 out of 1000 times it might go well, but that one time they see it and say "nope".. thats *really* going to suck if you have a number of Steam games

The problem is, if you buy a key from Russia, India, Brazil with the VPN, which they blocked now either way.
As long as I am in the EU with the same prices, they don't really care. I always can say I was on a vacation and bought the game there.

 

[mdw1985]

I agree partly. Yes, the use of propaganda material (thats what StGB §86 is about) is allowed in art, etc. But there is a very open debate if some games are of educational or even art character. If you look at the last two games which where forbidden (KZ Manager and Wolfenstein IIRC) both had none of this. HOI has at least a partly educational or documentary character - e.g. look at all these events which show "the path to the war" and beyond.


The cases you quoted were all in a context with swastikas, old party-posters etc.. Thats clearly propaganda material, so its forbidden. But is really a portray of a former legally announced chancellor propaganda material? If its in a poster of the NSDAP, clearly:yes. But in a game? We do not talk about if it is together with clearly forbidden symbols (SS-runes of swastikas) but just as what he was: the chancellor.

Unfortunately i don't have access to the Kommentar ( 2000+ pages IIRC) at the moment so I can not evaluate this part.

Personally, I don't care if his portait is in the game since when I am gaming I don't look at these things, just at information and game mechanisms. But if some need it for "immersion" I don't care.

Fischer clearly names the portrait, without stating it as his opinion. And this baby has really a lot of pages, even if it's a "kurz-kommentar" (over 2500).

What concerns computer games, i can not fully agree, to make an exception of 86 III here...maybe it'll change some point in the future, but this topic is quite a sensible thing concerning the xenophobic tendencies in germany at the moment, where refugee camps are burnt, the npd may be prohibited by BVerfG, the AFD getting stronger and Europe itsself heads to right wing governments...it is just to delicate know, that there might be changes soon.

The problem also is, where to draw a line between fun and history. Which game is historic enough, which game not? There might be clear standards and necessities needed, to make law jurisdiction secure for everyone in these matters. And everyone, who knows german laws, knows also, that it is held quite abstract and contains as we call "rubber-paragrapghs" (german: gummiparagraphen), which can be used to define subjective felt right decisions as an objective right one...

Another point is always what many call a "dammbruch-effect", which means, that if you open up the gates, the whole paragraph - 86 StGB 86 a StGB - could be washed out and useless in a near future, which I, don't want to have.

And since some people here load another version of steam, to get all the symbols in, i have to say, that HOI 3 was a great amount of fun for me, even with "Allo Lidd" and therefore is not an immersion killer for me...

Regards

 

[Victor Cortez]

I don't like anime...

Please don't kill me

That's two of us.

 

[leopard1a]

Thanks for opening this thread.

Can I buy a "real" version of this game in germany or must my relatives in the US buy it for me ?

 

[mdw1985]

Thanks for opening this thread.

Can I buy a "real" version of this game in germany or must my relatives in the US buy it for me ?

Not in Germany...maybe in Austria

 

[HAWK77]

Since i can claim to know the german law here, i can tell, that showing hitler is prohibited, paragraph 86 a I Nr.1 StGB...

Edit: To clearify it for german law noobs, showing such symbols is allowed, if it serves the defense against unconstitutional efforts, science, art, research, studies, reports concerning history or similar purposes, paragraph 86 III StGB. Computer games are not art. And computer games sich like HOI don't teach history. Computergames are released for fun purposes, which dominate towards art, science and critical reporting of history. I share this opinion of the german legislative fully in this matter!

So why can I buy Sniper Elite V2, Sniper Elite 3 and HOI3 which show hitler from the german steam store?
Why is HOI3 not censored but HOI4 will be?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/210561/
http://www.amazon.de/Sniper-Elite-V...450354962&sr=8-1&keywords=sniper+elite+hitler
http://store.steampowered.com/app/305180/

Your argument is invalid if some games show hitler and can be bought without restriction.

 

[Phibs]

Your argument is invalid if some games show hitler and can be bought without restriction.

While I disagree with mdw, that's not necessarily true. All these things could technically be illegal.

 

[thingol]

Could we get a dev clearing up if it was a joke or not?

 

[HAWK77]

While I disagree with mdw, that's not necessarily true. All these things could technically be illegal.

But why can these games be openly sold in Germany if they could be illegal?

 

[Phibs]

But why can these games be openly sold in germany if they could be illegal?

Dunno. An oversight? I mean I'm pretty sure the kill hitler dlc thingy for example was banned in Germany.

edit: but I agree, it's pretty inconsistent and imo nonsensical

 

[mdw1985]

So why can I buy Sniper Elite V2, Sniper Elite 3 and HOI3 which show hitler from the german steam store?
Why is HOI3 not censored but HOI4 will be?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/210561/
http://www.amazon.de/Sniper-Elite-V2-Hitler-Steam/dp/B00A7WL3J8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450354962&sr=8-1&keywords=sniper elite hitler
http://store.steampowered.com/app/305180/

Your argument is invalid if some games show hitler and can be bought without restriction.

I usually disagree with Phibs in this thread, but his answer below may be true.

While I disagree with mdw, that's not necessarily true. All these things could technically be illegal.

And there may be other reasons:

1st The painting of Hitler is nearly an exact copy of a glorifying existing painting from him, which was painted during the nazi time. Hitler in Sniper Elite has been modelled by the devs (That Hitler looks a bit weird though)

2nd Killing Hitler in a game can be seen eventually as one case of § 86 III StGB, while you can play literally Hitler in HOI 4, which is not case of § 86 III StGB IMHO

 

[mdw1985]

Dunno. An oversight? I mean I'm pretty sure the kill hitler dlc thingy for example was banned in Germany.

edit: but I agree, it's pretty inconsistent and imo nonsensical

Congrats! Now you understood german law and it's biggest problem!

(Seriously, this was no irony. You just described it's biggest problem due it's abstractism in one sentence...)

 

[HAWK77]

And there may be other reasons:

1st The painting of Hitler is nearly an exact copy of a glorifying existing painting from him, which was painted during the nazi time. Hitler in Sniper Elite has been modelled by the devs (That Hitler looks a bit weird though)

2nd Killing Hitler in a game can be seen eventually as one case of § 86 III StGB, while you can play literally Hitler in HOI 4, which is not case of § 86 III StGB IMHO

What is your explanation why HOI3 is not censored?

 

[mdw1985]

What is your explanation why HOI3 is not censored?

HOI 3 is censored here in Germany!!! I could only buy the censored version of HOI3 here, where he was "Allo Lidd" (i have both the steam and the dvd version). If someone sold you an uncensored version, then the store might either committed a crime (if this copy would usually be illegal) or not (if he didn't know about the illegality)

Edit: A already discussed this matter with a friend of mine, who is D.A. (District Attorney). He shares my opinion in this...

 

[Phibs]

And there may be other reasons:

1st The painting of Hitler is nearly an exact copy of a glorifying existing painting from him, which was painted during the nazi time. Hitler in Sniper Elite has been modelled by the devs (That Hitler looks a bit weird though)

2nd Killing Hitler in a game can be seen eventually as one case of § 86 III StGB, while you can play literally Hitler in HOI 4, which is not case of § 86 III StGB IMHO

Reason #1 sounds pretty silly tbh. The portrait has something distinctly cartoony to it and it's devoid of any offensive regalia. Regardless, the sniper elite thingy was banned, so the level of likeness is not the issue.
As to #2, to be completely overly nit-picky, no you don't. You play the nation, not the guy. "However even if Hearts of Iron IV is a grand strategy game highly focused on war, the role you take on as the player is close to the role you take in Europa Universalis IV - you will play as the guiding spirit behind the nation trying to shape history and determine the fate of your country, often guided by in-game events and decisions." Podcat 1st dev diary.

Congrats! Now you understood german law and it's biggest problem!

(Seriously, this was no irony. You just described it's biggest problem due it's abstractism in one sentence...)

Erm, thanks? That was pretty much my approach from point one, but ok.

HOI 3 is censored here in Germany!!! I could only buy the censored version of HOI3 here, where he was "Allo Lidd" (i have both the steam and the dvd version). If someone sold you an uncensored version, then the store might either committed a crime (if this copy would usually be illegal) or not (if he didn't know about the illegality)

Edit: A already discussed this matter with a friend of mine, who is D.A. (District Attorney). He shares my opinion in this...

I bought the steam version. Completely uncensored (in the English version). Might technically be illegal, yes. *shrug*

 

[mdw1985]

Reason #1 sounds pretty silly tbh. The portrait has something distinctly cartoony to it and it's devoid of any offensive regalia. Regardless, the sniper elite thingy was banned, so the level of likeness is not the issue.
As to #2, to be completely overly nit-picky, no you don't. You play the nation, not the guy. "However even if Hearts of Iron IV is a grand strategy game highly focused on war, the role you take on as the player is close to the role you take in Europa Universalis IV - you will play as the guiding spirit behind the nation trying to shape history and determine the fate of your country, often guided by in-game events and decisions." Podcat 1st dev diary.



Erm, thanks? That was pretty much my approach from point one, but ok.



I bought the steam version. Completely uncensored (in the English version). Might technically be illegal, yes. *shrug*

From your last sentence: you got nothing to fear.

The rest: complicated stuff, which is decided by the judge, who could see this from this or that point. But more likely it will be my point...

 

[Phibs]

From your last sentence: you got nothing to fear.

The rest: complicated stuff, which is decided by the judge, who could see this from this or that point. But more likely it will be my point...

As I said, we don't have a different viewpoints on the legal situation. Just different value judgements of said situation.